I’m mostly curious to see how much you guys think Starlin Castro is worth over the remaining 4 years of club control. There are two polls below. The first one is a simple yes/no question. If you answer no to the first one, do nothing else. If you answer yes, please answer the second poll. I’m going to assume the Cubs not only buy out his pre-free agency years, but also buy out one additional year. This means a 5-year contract.
Comments
I put yes and 5/20, but I don’t really have any justification for it. I’m also okay with not extending him (at least not this winter), or even trading him.
So IOW, fuck me. (dying laughing)
MishQuote Reply
Hopefully others will vote before they read the comments. I also voted yes and 5/20. I was stuck between 5/15 and 5/20. Like you, I’d be fine with them not extending him.
mb21Quote Reply
I’m curious to see how close we get to what he’s really worth using projections to estimate contract value.
mb21Quote Reply
I voted no and 5/15 (an “if they did it anyway” vote). I just think there are too many shortcomings there to rush to lock him up right now, and if he does get moved to 3B, his value is lessened by a not-insignificant amount.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
I voted “yes” and I’m a bit optimistic as I think he will improve and be worth a 5/$30MM contract, but I’m usually not to be trusted with money (dying laughing)
Rice CubeQuote Reply
I said no because I don’t know if he’s valuable enough to lessen his value to cost ratio to “save” money when he gets enough service time to go free agent.
This isn’t a Hall of Fame player they need to lock up. Just because he’s the best the Cubs have doesn’t mean they should treat him like he’s among the best in baseball.
Aisle424Quote Reply
I agree with 424 and MO here. I mostly voted yes so I could vote for a figure that I think would be an appropriate amount of money. I wouldn’t lock him up. He’s just not good enough to do that in my opinion. This isn’t Ryan Braun after the 2007 season. It’s not Evan Longoria. He’s a young and talented SS with a lot of potential, but without the high ceiling those others have had.
mb21Quote Reply
Uh, voted for what I thought was the “most likely” in the second one before realizing that the only two types of people who shouldn’t have said that the “best” contract is the one for the least money are idiots and Starlin Castro.
So I guess that makes me…?
fang2415Quote Reply
Really, the question should be “what’s the most that the Cubs should offer Castro”
fang2415Quote Reply
[quote name=fang2415]Really, the question should be “what’s the most that the Cubs should offer Castro”[/quote]
Probably no more than the $15-$20MM.
I think a competent GM wouldn’t extend him though, assuming Ricketts hires one.
My vote was more in line with what Hendry would’ve done according to most Cubs fans.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
(dying laughing) I should have worded it differently.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=Rice Cube]Probably no more than the $15-$20MM.
I think a competent GM wouldn’t extend him though, assuming Ricketts hires one.
My vote was more in line with what Hendry would’ve done according to most Cubs fans.[/quote]I think I said 30 (I can’t even remember, (dying laughing)), but in my defense I am wayy too mentally lazy to remember all the stupid arb rules. I just thought “meh, 3-WAR-ish player, so 15MM for his free agent year, plus like, uh, less than that for each year before that. 30 million!”
So… yeah. Change the poll question and remind everybody what the fuck the arb rules are or risk re-discreditation.
fang2415Quote Reply
[quote name=fang2415]Really, the question should be “what’s the most that the Cubs should offer Castro”[/quote]Thanks. Just changed the question to that.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=mb21]I agree with 424 and MO here. I mostly voted yes so I could vote for a figure that I think would be an appropriate amount of money. I wouldn’t lock him up. He’s just not good enough to do that in my opinion. This isn’t Ryan Braun after the 2007 season. It’s not Evan Longoria. He’s a young and talented SS with a lot of potential, but without the high ceiling those others have had.[/quote]
They still took a crazy gamble on Longoria though, right? How do you project awesomeness that far forward to set up that kind of contract? Plus the player has to actually accept the contract.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=fang2415]I think I said 30 (I can’t even remember, (dying laughing)), but in my defense I am wayy too mentally lazy to remember all the stupid arb rules. I just thought “meh, 3-WAR-ish player, so 15MM for his free agent year, plus like, uh, less than that for each year before that. 30 million!”
So… yeah. Change the poll question and remind everybody what the fuck the arb rules are or risk re-discreditation.[/quote]I changed the question, but I don’t want to remind people what the pay scale typically is during arbitration. I’m going to post those numbers tomorrow. I’m wondering if the wisdom of the crowds approach comes up with similar results.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=mb21]Thanks. Just changed the question to that.[/quote]Rad. My vote is now sensibly stupid instead of meaninglessly stupid.
fang2415Quote Reply
[quote name=Rice Cube]They still took a crazy gamble on Longoria though, right? How do you project awesomeness that far forward to set up that kind of contract? Plus the player has to actually accept the contract.[/quote]I don’t think they took a gamble. The Rays knew what they could expect from Longoria, though there was more uncertainty since he’d only been in th league a couple of weeks. That was one of the most team friendly contracts in history.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=fang2415]Rad. My vote is now sensibly stupid instead of meaninglessly stupid.[/quote]It will average out so your vote will have little impact. Kind of like a general election. (dying laughing)
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=mb21]I don’t think they took a gamble. The Rays knew what they could expect from Longoria, though there was more uncertainty since he’d only been in th league a couple of weeks. That was one of the most team friendly contracts in history.[/quote]
Yeah, I read about it in Jonah Keri’s book and I’m still amazed how well it worked out. Longoria isn’t as set for life as he would be otherwise but he’s still getting a shitload of money.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=mb21]I changed the question, but I don’t want to remind people what the pay scale typically is during arbitration. I’m going to post those numbers tomorrow. I’m wondering if the wisdom of the crowds approach comes up with similar results.[/quote]Well, it does affect it a lot though, since we’re not guessing value, we’re guessing rules. For instance, isn’t Castro like a Super Two or Super Sundae or Super Chicken or whatever? For all I know that means he gets double the normal arb money, but for like two years longer unless he hits less than 80 RBIs in the second arb year or some crazy shit. So if that rule means he gets like 80% of his value instead of like 45%, then my number is (even more) wrong, even though I think his value is the same.
Bottom line is I think Castro would be worth about 15MM as an FA, so if the Cubs can pay like 5MM less than whatever the fuck a 15MM/yr-FA player gets over 5 years on whatever the fuck Castro’s arb schedule is… they should do it.
That’s what I think you want your poll to measure, but too much of the actual number depends on crazy made-up (er… arbitrary) arb rules…
fang2415Quote Reply
[quote name=mb21]It will average out so your vote will have little impact. Kind of like a general election. (dying laughing)[/quote]I accidentally voted wrong, but then you changed it so that I accidentally voted correctly. I’m like a retired Florida Democrat who misread the ballot and voted for Nader.
fang2415Quote Reply
[quote name=fang2415]Well, it does affect it a lot though, since we’re not guessing value, we’re guessing rules. For instance, isn’t Castro like a Super Two or Super Sundae or Super Chicken or whatever? For all I know that means he gets double the normal arb money, but for like two years longer unless he hits less than 80 RBIs in the second arb year or some crazy shit. So if that rule means he gets like 80% of his value instead of like 45%, then my number is (even more) wrong, even though I think his value is the same.
Bottom line is I think Castro would be worth about 15MM as an FA, so if the Cubs can pay like 5MM less than whatever the fuck a 15MM/yr-FA player gets over 5 years on whatever the fuck Castro’s arb schedule is… they should do it.
That’s what I think you want your poll to measure, but too much of the actual number depends on crazy made-up (er… arbitrary) arb rules…[/quote]
Based on this post I feel like my $30MM vote almost makes sense.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
Yeah, which is why I don’t want that to influence people’s votes. I just ran the numbers real quick and looking over the results so far it appears the voters have basically nailed Castro’s value over 5 years.
The one thing that the voters know is what similar players have gotten. They may not know the exact value, but they’ve heard the figures and they have it in the back of their head. The arbitration scale ignores that we use ignores that even though it’s not ignored. So the voters are probably going to be closer to what Castro is worth than what the numbers will show. I would expect they’ll be close to one another.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=mb21]Yeah, which is why I don’t want that to influence people’s votes. I just ran the numbers real quick and looking over the results so far it appears the voters have basically nailed Castro’s value over 5 years.
The one thing that the voters know is what similar players have gotten. They may not know the exact value, but they’ve heard the figures and they have it in the back of their head. The arbitration scale ignores that we use ignores that even though it’s not ignored. So the voters are probably going to be closer to what Castro is worth than what the numbers will show. I would expect they’ll be close to one another.[/quote]Yeah, it could well be that most voters are smarter than I am. I have no clue what comparable players earn — I know Longoria’s contract is amazing blah blah blah but I have no idea what it is (and am too lazy to look it up). Plus I bet more than a couple of OV’s bitter nerd readers actually do know the arb rules better than I do. …All of which explains why I ruined the smartness of the results by voting for $30MM.
I do think the interesting question though is how much the Cubs should discount what the arb schedule says he’ll be paid based on his current production. That’s where the poll will differ from the numbers you’re finna post, and you’re right that that will probably be more accurate.
fang2415Quote Reply
I plan to take something off because there’s no reason to lock someone up and pay the current expected rate. It’s the same as locking someone up for 3-years. You get a 10% discount. I’m going to use that figure because if the Cubs just have to pay how much he’s worth then why not wait? There has to be a reason to sign him to an extension and there are two of them: cheaper rates in the next few years and a much cheaper rate the first or second year when free agent eligible.
mb21Quote Reply
I know Ryan Braun got $45 million over something like 8 years after his first year. So that actually influenced my vote more than anything else. I know it’s a few years later, but the value of the win remains the same. If Braun got $45 million over 8 years, then I have trouble seeing Castro worth more than $20 million over 5.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=mb21]I plan to take something off because there’s no reason to lock someone up and pay the current expected rate. It’s the same as locking someone up for 3-years. You get a 10% discount. I’m going to use that figure because if the Cubs just have to pay how much he’s worth then why not wait? There has to be a reason to sign him to an extension and there are two of them: cheaper rates in the next few years and a much cheaper rate the first or second year when free agent eligible.[/quote]Yeah, the gray areas that a GM / nosy fan needs to make a call on are 1) how much will he be worth when he hits free agency, and 2) how much of a discount is worth the risk of paying for 5 years in advance? If voters do have a decent intuitive sense of the arb scale, that’ll be what the poll will pick up.
fang2415Quote Reply
[quote name=mb21]I know Ryan Braun got $45 million over something like 8 years after his first year. So that actually influenced my vote more than anything else. I know it’s a few years later, but the value of the win remains the same. If Braun got $45 million over 8 years, then I have trouble seeing Castro worth more than $20 million over 5.[/quote]See? I told you voters were smarter than me. (Well, one, anyway.) Without looking anything up, I know that Ryan Braun plays for the Brewers, is fecking awesome at baseball, and has stubble.
HURR DURR $30MM
fang2415Quote Reply
http://www.voxmagazine.com/stories/2011/08/18/rock-m-nation-founder-blogs-about-college-football/
mb21Quote Reply
I voted Yes and $50 Mil and here’s why: I honestly have no idea how major league money works. I figured $10 M isn’t that much per year.
binkyQuote Reply
Sori’s on a roll. So that’s good.
binkyQuote Reply
[quote name=josh]Sori’s on a roll. So that’s good.[/quote]
Will be marginally easier to trade him this offseason (dying laughing)
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=josh]I voted Yes and $50 Mil and here’s why: I honestly have no idea how major league money works. I figured $10 M isn’t that much per year.[/quote]
I forgot what MB said the $$ for a win was, but I think it’s about $5MM a win. So if you assume Castro to be a 2-win player he could be worth $10MM a year (I think he’s closer to a 3-win player myself). The issue is that he’s under cost-control for a number of years so you obviously won’t have to pay him that much over that time.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
When Soriano connects on a mistake it goes a long, long way.
mb21Quote Reply
Yeah, dollar per win right now is about $4.5 million plus inflation each year of course. The thing with cost controlled players is that Castro has one more year of league minimum and 4 arb years. The arb years generally pay out 40/60/80% of the player’s free agent value. So if Castro is a 2-WAR player you’d expect he’d get $4 million in the first year of arbitration. 40% of his free agent value.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=mb21]When Soriano connects on a mistake it goes a long, long way.[/quote]I still don’t grasp how someone that slight and breaky can hit a ball that hard and that far.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
That was exactly where to hit it to get a triple.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=mb21]Yeah, dollar per win right now is about $4.5 million plus inflation each year of course. The thing with cost controlled players is that Castro has one more year of league minimum and 4 arb years. The arb years generally pay out 40/60/80% of the player’s free agent value. So if Castro is a 2-WAR player you’d expect he’d get $4 million in the first year of arbitration. 40% of his free agent value.[/quote]Yeah, that makes sense, I was thinking more free agent wise, but if he was going to sign now, he’d do so with the understanding that he gets more, but possibly not what he’s worth. I expect him to be a 3 win player as well, but I’m an optimistic fellow….about Castro.
It should be noted that I ran it through Excel and 2.9 people also voted 5/50.
binkyQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]I still don’t grasp how someone that slight and breaky can hit a ball that hard and that far.[/quote]a) His bat weighs like 4lbs. b) He’s got a lot of power in his legs. He maybe can’t use them for running, but he can still generate bat speed, and his swing may look weird, but he’s been using it for 25 years.
binkyQuote Reply
[quote name=josh]a) His bat weighs like 4lbs. b) He’s got a lot of power in his legs. He maybe can’t use them for running, but he can still generate bat speed, and his swing may look weird, but he’s been using it for 25 years.[/quote](dying laughing) too true
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
Can’t shut out a team forever, I guess.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
Colvin IBB to face Soto? WTF?
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
Soriano is strong.
http://chicago.cubs.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=18624399
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]Colvin IBB to face Soto? WTF?[/quote]
It obviously didn’t work.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=Rice Cube]It obviously didn’t work.[/quote]The Giants are outCubbing the Cubs.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]Colvin IBB to face Soto? WTF?[/quote]Even before the double I was thinking that was one of the dumbest managerial moves I’ve ever seen. It makes me feel so much better about Quade.
ACTQuote Reply
Let’s load the bases for a guy with power and patience! Let’s walk the super-low OBP guy with 2 outs!
ACTQuote Reply
[quote name=ACT]Let’s load the bases for a guy with power and patience! Let’s walk the super-low OBP guy with 2 outs![/quote]
He was obviously blinded by the platoon advantage.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
Only 5 Ks for Garza so far. Surprisingly low number. A bunch of popups and lazy flyouts though. That off-speed stuff has some bite to it.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
Make that six Ks.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
Aaron Rowand is so damn bad.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]Aaron Rowand is so damn bad.[/quote]
He looks like he will keel over if the fans on the first base side all blew at him at the same time.
Garza finally walked somebody.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
That would’ve been an incredible defensive play if Castro could’ve held onto the ball.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
Guys me and my buddys just started a new site. Its pretty much about college football and some other things. If you have a moment give us a look and a follow! We have had over 1300 views in a day and a half.
http://secbagmen.blogspot.com/
Thanks!!!
Love Bubbles!!
bubblesdachimpQuote Reply
It’s pretty amazing how many balls Castro gets to. I wonder if, like a pitcher who throws too many strikes, there’s such a thing as a SS who gets to too many balls.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]It’s pretty amazing how many balls Castro gets to. I wonder if, like a pitcher who throws too many strikes, there’s such a thing as a SS who gets to too many balls.[/quote]
There’s a gay joke in here somewhere.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=Rice Cube]There’s a gay joke in here somewhere.[/quote]False.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
Happy birthday, Sean Marshall.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
I notice the vote total is tied between the $20MM folk and the $35MM folk with the $30MM folk right behind.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=Rice Cube]Happy birthday, Sean Marshall.[/quote]Too bad they didn’t give him better infield defense; that’s all he really wanted for his birthday.
ACTQuote Reply
Marlon Byrd isn’t having a very good birthday.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
It’s nice that the player with worst arm maybe in the majors is the Cubs defensive replacement.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]It’s nice that the player with worst arm maybe in the majors is the Cubs defensive replacement.[/quote]
Scrap + heart + hustle + grit >>>>>>> all
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=Rice Cube]Soriano is strong.
http://chicago.cubs.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=18624399%5B/quote%5DHe saw that pitch coming a mile away. He wound up for that one. Yeah, dude can’t run anymore, but he is strong.
binkyQuote Reply
[quote name=Rice Cube]Will be marginally easier to trade him this offseason (dying laughing)[/quote]
His likelihood of being traded just increased by 1000000000%
BerseliusQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]I voted no and 5/15 (an “if they did it anyway” vote). I just think there are too many shortcomings there to rush to lock him up right now, and if he does get moved to 3B, his value is lessened by a not-insignificant amount.[/quote]
Insert the saw about players being just as valuable wherever you play them. Though FWIW I don’t think a move to 3b would be a good idea with Castro. If his main problem is his arm accuracy then he wouldn’t stick there either. If he gets moved I think it’s to either 2b or preferably CF.
BerseliusQuote Reply
I’m not sold on UW because I’m worried about how many players they graduated and Wilson not having anyone worth a damn to throw to.
I think it’s fair to overlook OSU because of how much change there’s been on the team. I never thought much of Pryor but who knows how much the new coaching will need. Without Pryor at the helm their offense is necessarily going to have to change systems, though maybe not as drastic as it was at UM with RichRod.
Of course the other implicit strike against OSU is the threat of sanctions hanging over their head. Even if they win the Bullshit Division Name Division they might not be allowed to play in the CCG anyway.
BerseliusQuote Reply
Too lazy to quote shit from the last thread but I agree with MB. I’ll be shocked if there are any changes at all in the next CBA. Everything is going great for everyone. I don’t share MO’s wariness of the MLBPA. The lawyers might bitch and moan about things but I very much don’t get the vibe that the players would go to the mattresses about any issue out there right now. Back when the players’ union was moving and shaking Marvin Miller made sure that it was the players who were leading the charge, he was just consulting. I don’t think any player could give a fuck right now.
BerseliusQuote Reply
[quote name=mb21]Who the fuck is going to pay to read the Daily Herald? If people are going to pay to read that place then I suggest we here at Obstructed View add a pay wall. What the fuck?[/quote]
Their only subscriber will be the Lesbian Hobbit, just so he can troll the young writers there (dying laughing)
BerseliusQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]It’s nice that the player with worst arm maybe in the majors is the Cubs defensive replacement.[/quote]If it had come up, he could have just run in and handed the ball to the infield before the runner could advance.
binkyQuote Reply
So Alvin truly thinks people stumble onto sports sites and seek out bullshit like “posting guidelines”?
Dr. Aneus TaintQuote Reply
http://www.bleedcubbieblue.com/2011/8/29/2390652/new-captains-to-right-the-ship#75844172
(dying laughing)
It’s OK to make fun of Mark Prior for his career-threatening injuries, but not OK to make fun of Jim Hendry for choosing to be overweight.
Dr. Aneus TaintQuote Reply
sigh
/SDSJM
BerseliusQuote Reply
dj: http://sfo.scout.com/2/1100847.html
Last in the west would be about 5-11, which would likely have them picking around No. 5. The cost to move from No. 5 to No. 1 would be at least a 2 and a 3 (and probably a player or two).
Would you move up for Luck? Stay and pick Barkley (no Landry Jones, please). Be patient with Kaepernick and pick OT Jonathan Martin?
Dr. Aneus TaintQuote Reply
[quote name=Berselius]sigh
/SDSJM[/quote]I was trying to figure out what SDSJM meant, and this is what google gave me:
http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/5695387/alvin-and-sdsjm
binkyQuote Reply
you pick Luck. But nobody will ever trade that pick. Ever.
dylanjQuote Reply
brett jackson has gone 3 games without striking out. the world must be ending
dylanjQuote Reply
[quote name=josh]I was trying to figure out what SDSJM meant, and this is what google gave me:
http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/5695387/alvin-and-sdsjm%5B/quote%5D
Forgot about those xtranormal videos. (dying laughing)
Dr. Aneus TaintQuote Reply
http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/14524
I will call your R + RBI and raise you a MVP.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=dylanj]you pick Luck. But nobody will ever trade that pick. Ever.[/quote]
Carolina might. I don’t think they can justify taking a QB with their first pick three years in a row. I think they take Kalil or trade out if they’re at No. 1. JAX, TEN and maybe ARI are the other teams with a shot at No. 1 that wouldn’t pick Luck.
Dr. Aneus TaintQuote Reply
TEN isnt going to pass up on Luck for Jake Locker.
dylanjQuote Reply
[quote name=dylanj]TEN isnt going to pass up on Luck for Jake Locker.[/quote]
You’d be surprised what NFL teams would pass on because of what they took the year before. They won’t devalue the No. 8 overall pick after one year.
Luck is as can’t miss as any QB prospect I can remember, but that doesn’t mean he can’t miss. Ryan Leaf was a “sure thing” too.
I would bet any reasonable amount of money that CAR, JAX and TEN would absolutely not select Luck No. 1 given the opportunity.
Dr. Aneus TaintQuote Reply
So true. I remember teams saying they felt Leaf was the safer pick over Manning. (dying laughing)
MuckerQuote Reply
[quote name=Mucker]So true. I remember teams saying they felt Leaf was the safer pick over Manning. (dying laughing)[/quote]
I thought the same thing. Mostly because Manning was so spastic against tough teams in college.
Dr. Aneus TaintQuote Reply
[quote name=Dr. Aneus Taint]I thought the same thing. Mostly because Manning was so spastic against tough teams in college.[/quote]Really? That’s interesting. I was a senior in HS when they came out and I remember the draft talk about them. I didn’t watch them to form my own opinion but it’s amazing looking back on Manning’s career that there was a consensus like that. Leaf, Akili Smith, Tim Couch, Cade McNown, there were a lot of QB busts in a 2 year span. I would never take a QB early unless I had a strong foundation of a good O-line and good weapons for him.
MuckerQuote Reply
[quote name=Mucker]Really? That’s interesting. I was a senior in HS when they came out and I remember the draft talk about them. I didn’t watch them to form my own opinion but it’s amazing looking back on Manning’s career that there was a consensus like that. Leaf, Akili Smith, Tim Couch, Cade McNown, there were a lot of QB busts in a 2 year span. I would never take a QB early unless I had a strong foundation of a good O-line and good weapons for him.[/quote]
This.
WaLiQuote Reply
[quote name=Mucker]Really? That’s interesting. I was a senior in HS when they came out and I remember the draft talk about them. I didn’t watch them to form my own opinion but it’s amazing looking back on Manning’s career that there was a consensus like that. Leaf, Akili Smith, Tim Couch, Cade McNown, there were a lot of QB busts in a 2 year span. I would never take a QB early unless I had a strong foundation of a good O-line and good weapons for him.[/quote]
Manning took happy feet to a new level in college. He had trouble in “big games” too. It’s not that I was down on him, but Leaf seemed like he had a better skillset to turn pro.
Dr. Aneus TaintQuote Reply
Tim Stauffer had a bad inning:
Eww.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=Rice Cube]Tim Stauffer had a bad inning:
Eww.[/quote]He obviously wasn’t having fun.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/08/30/albert-pujols-most-valuable-dad/
Albert Pujols —–> porn for women
Rice CubeQuote Reply
7 walks in one inning? Jesus DeRosa!!!
MuckerQuote Reply
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20110830&content_id=23948586¬ebook_id=23948590&vkey=notebook_chc&c_id=chc&partnerId=rss_chc
There would be some irony in Ron Santo getting into the HOF for something he sucked at rather than for something he was good at.
Santo was pretty amusing in the crazy uncle mode though and I’ll miss him, but there’s no denying he was a horrible commentator (dying laughing)
Rice CubeQuote Reply
It’s finally final: http://www.tamu.edu/athletics/conferenceChange.html
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=Rice Cube]Tim Stauffer had a bad inning. thanks to Aramis Ramirez:
Eww.[/quote]
Hollandsworth’d
BerseliusQuote Reply
[quote name=mb21]It’s finally final: http://www.tamu.edu/athletics/conferenceChange.html%5B/quote%5D
Is it officially official though?
BerseliusQuote Reply
Random Rick Ankiel highlight reel linked off B-Ref’s blog:
http://passion4baseball.blogspot.com/2011/08/rick-ankiel-can-throw-little-bit.html
Rice CubeQuote Reply
May as well just call it the Big 9. (dying laughing)
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=Rice Cube]Random Rick Ankiel highlight reel linked off B-Ref’s blog:
http://passion4baseball.blogspot.com/2011/08/rick-ankiel-can-throw-little-bit.html%5B/quote%5D
This one is actually quite appropriate:
http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=11005471
Rice CubeQuote Reply
Or how about the Big 2 Plus Shit?
mb21Quote Reply
If Oklahoma or Texas bolts, they’ll lose their AQ bid. You have to assume one of them is gone before long unless they’re both stupid.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=mb21]If Oklahoma or Texas bolts, they’ll lose their AQ bid. You have to assume one of them is gone before long unless they’re both stupid.[/quote]
I thought the Pac-whatever was trying to get Texas to join.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=mb21]It’s finally final: http://www.tamu.edu/athletics/conferenceChange.html%5B/quote%5D
Well, they still have to be accepted into the SEC, but that should happen soon.
[quote name=mb21]If Oklahoma or Texas bolts, they’ll lose their AQ bid. You have to assume one of them is gone before long unless they’re both stupid.[/quote]
Texas will either take OU, Tech and OkSU to the Pac 12 or wait for OU to join the SEC, let the conference crumble and head to the Big 10/independence.
Dr. Aneus TaintQuote Reply
[quote name=Rice Cube]I thought the Pac-whatever was trying to get Texas to join.[/quote]
They were. We wanted our own network, though.
What might happen is the network becomes the Texas channel of the Pac 12 network.
Dr. Aneus TaintQuote Reply
[quote name=mb21]May as well just call it the Big 9. (dying laughing)[/quote]
Big Zero pretty soon (dying laughing)
BerseliusQuote Reply
[quote name=Dr. Aneus Taint]They were. We wanted our own network, though.
What might happen is the network becomes the Texas channel of the Pac 12 network.[/quote]
I would have thought that some of the Pac-whatever elite (USC, Oregon etc) might object to Texas poaching some of their recruits though.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
I just can’t picture Oklahoma anywhere other than the SEC. They’re just an SEC school. Always have been and always will be. They’ve just been lost for a long time. Eventually they’ll get home.
mb21Quote Reply
http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/6910166/father-time-philadelphia-phillies
BerseliusQuote Reply
[quote name=mb21]I just can’t picture Oklahoma anywhere other than the SEC. They’re just an SEC school. Always have been and always will be. They’ve just been lost for a long time. Eventually they’ll get home.[/quote]
What happened to all the talk about OSU having to go along with OU? On their own they’re a better fit for the SEC but I think they end up in the pac 12 with OSU.
BerseliusQuote Reply
[quote name=Rice Cube]I would have thought that some of the Pac-whatever elite (USC, Oregon etc) might object to Texas poaching some of their recruits though.[/quote]
Texas doesn’t typically go after OOS recruits. Maybe a handful per year. The flipside, though, is all those Pac 12 schools will have a presence in Texas.
[quote name=mb21]I just can’t picture Oklahoma anywhere other than the SEC. They’re just an SEC school. Always have been and always will be. They’ve just been lost for a long time. Eventually they’ll get home.[/quote]
Yeah, they’re an SEC school all the way. But would you want to play an SEC schedule and have Texas as one of your non-con games every year?
Dr. Aneus TaintQuote Reply
[quote name=Berselius]http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/6910166/father-time-philadelphia-phillies[/quote]Grantland:Sportswriting :: Ryan Howard’s Contract:Common Sense
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]Grantland:Sportswriting :: Ryan Howard’s Contract:Common Sense[/quote]Damn, I thought Howard was younger than that. What was the reasoning behind signing him to that kind of contract?
So is Ozzie done on the Southside, or is he posturing so that he has a chance to be considered for the Cubs job?
binkyQuote Reply
Does Ankiel have the best outfield arm ever? I’ve never seen anybody throw runners out as consistently and as impressively. His arm his strong and very accurate. It’s insane.
MuckerQuote Reply
[quote name=josh]Damn, I thought Howard was younger than that. What was the reasoning behind signing him to that kind of contract?
So is Ozzie done on the Southside, or is he posturing so that he has a chance to be considered for the Cubs job?[/quote]These are both questions that demand one delve into minds of people in whose minds no sane person would wish to delve. (dying laughing)
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Mucker]Does Ankiel have the best outfield arm ever? I’ve never seen anybody throw runners out as consistently and as impressively. His arm his strong and very accurate. It’s insane.[/quote]Bo Jackson would like a word with you.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]
Bo JacksonRoberto Clemente would like a word with you.[/quote]Fixed.BerseliusQuote Reply
[quote name=Berselius]Fixed.[/quote]Acceptable edit.
I wish I could find a clip of Jackson throwing that guy out in the Kingdome. Dead CF, at the base of the wall, Jackson picks it up, turns, fires, one hop to home, nails the runner.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
I’m sure Bo and Clemente had equally as impressive arms and maybe stronger but were they as accurate? Ankiel seems to have both a very strong arm and impressively accurate arm. I’ve never seen anyone else do it better personally.
MuckerQuote Reply
[quote name=Mucker]I’m sure Bo and Clemente had equally as impressive arms and maybe stronger but were they as accurate? Ankiel seems to have both a very strong arm and impressively accurate arm. I’ve never seen anyone else do it better personally.[/quote]
It’s kind of funny that he lost the ability to be accurate at 60 feet, 6 inches, but has little trouble firing a strike to a base 200+ feet away.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=Berselius]What happened to all the talk about OSU having to go along with OU? On their own they’re a better fit for the SEC but I think they end up in the pac 12 with OSU.[/quote]I think it’s interesting that I heard from someone I trust that OU was talking with the Big Ten to see if they’re intersted. I’m sure they said no, but if it means Texas comes along I could see it.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]Grantland:Sportswriting :: Ryan Howard’s Contract:Common Sense[/quote](dying laughing) I don’t understand the whole fuss about this Grantland blog. I’ve been there once and left quickly.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=Mucker]I’m sure Bo and Clemente had equally as impressive arms and maybe stronger but were they as accurate? Ankiel seems to have both a very strong arm and impressively accurate arm. I’ve never seen anyone else do it better personally.[/quote]I’ve never seen anyone as consistent, but I never watched Bo Jackson, and Clemente was before my time. He’s definitely got to be at the top of that chart of active players.
binkyQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]These are both questions that demand one delve into minds of people in whose minds no sane person would wish to delve. (dying laughing)[/quote]Yeah, good call. Nevermind.
binkyQuote Reply
[quote name=Mucker]I’m sure Bo and Clemente had equally as impressive arms and maybe stronger but were they as accurate? Ankiel seems to have both a very strong arm and impressively accurate arm. I’ve never seen anyone else do it better personally.[/quote]Clemente used to throw guys out at 1B on what should have been routine singles. His arm is the best ever.
Jackson’s was as good as Ankiel’s, IMO. I saw Jackson play a lot as a kid and his arm was deadly. Maybe not as pinpoint as Ankiel, but still very accurate and unbelievably strong. The throw in the Kingdome is said to have traveled almost 400 ft. before hitting the ground.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Rice Cube]It’s kind of funny that he lost the ability to be accurate at 60 feet, 6 inches, but has little trouble firing a strike to a base 200+ feet away.[/quote](dying laughing) Crazy
MuckerQuote Reply
[quote name=josh]I’ve never seen anyone as consistent, but I never watched Bo Jackson, and Clemente was before my time. He’s definitely got to be at the top of that chart of active players.[/quote]Easily. The only active guys close to Ankiel are probably Werth and Soriano…and they aren’t that close. (dying laughing)
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]Clemente used to throw guys out at 1B on what should have been routine singles. His arm is the best ever.
Jackson’s was as good as Ankiel’s, IMO. I saw Jackson play a lot as a kid and his arm was deadly. Maybe not as pinpoint as Ankiel, but still very accurate and unbelievably strong. The throw in the Kingdome is said to have traveled almost 400 ft. before hitting the ground.[/quote]I remember seeing highlights of that Bo throw and to say it was impressive is an understatement. It was insane. I think what’s so impressive about Ankiel is how often he does it. It’s one thing to have a throw like that once in a blue moon but he does it every couple months it seems.
MuckerQuote Reply
[quote name=Berselius]What happened to all the talk about OSU having to go along with OU? On their own they’re a better fit for the SEC but I think they end up in the pac 12 with OSU.[/quote]I’m also not sure I buy all the talk about certain teams having to go along with others in this realignment stuff. A year ago people said A&M had to go with Texas and Texas has to go with about 378 other schools for some reason. Personally, I think people are just making stuff up. It’s like you couldn’t separate Michigan and Ohio State. It could never happen they said. In the end, this is all about money and I don’t think one team cares so much about playing any other team that they’re going to give up money just so they can play them.
From the Pac’s perspective, why on earth would they take OU and OSU? OU brings you that market and then some. OkSU brings you nothing OU doesn’t. How could you get the universitiy presidents to agree to bring them along? It would be like trying to get the Big Ten to agree to bring Iowa State into the conference. Why would the universities want to make the same money and give it out to more teams?
So I just don’t know how you get these people to agree to less money by adding OkSU. I figure one of them to the SEC and one of them to the Pac. Works nicely for both conferences.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]Easily. The only active guys close to Ankiel are probably Werth and Soriano…and they aren’t that close. (dying laughing)[/quote]Francouer? He’s got a great arm too.
MuckerQuote Reply
Dr. Aneus TaintQuote Reply
[quote name=mb21]I’m also not sure I buy all the talk about certain teams having to go along with others in this realignment stuff. A year ago people said A&M had to go with Texas and Texas has to go with about 378 other schools for some reason. Personally, I think people are just making stuff up. It’s like you couldn’t separate Michigan and Ohio State. It could never happen they said. In the end, this is all about money and I don’t think one team cares so much about playing any other team that they’re going to give up money just so they can play them.
From the Pac’s perspective, why on earth would they take OU and OSU? OU brings you that market and then some. OkSU brings you nothing OU doesn’t. How could you get the universitiy presidents to agree to bring them along? It would be like trying to get the Big Ten to agree to bring Iowa State into the conference. Why would the universities want to make the same money and give it out to more teams?
So I just don’t know how you get these people to agree to less money by adding OkSU. I figure one of them to the SEC and one of them to the Pac. Works nicely for both conferences.[/quote]
Texas is being pressured into taking the other Texas Big 12 schools with them. In turn, we’re letting the other teams go elsewhere while we sit pretty with our network until the perfect scenario comes along.
Dr. Aneus TaintQuote Reply
Didn’t one of the THT annuals do a list of the top outfield arms since 1950 or something?
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=Dr. Aneus Taint]Texas is being pressured into taking the other Texas Big 12 schools with them. In turn, we’re letting the other teams go elsewhere while we sit pretty with our network until the perfect scenario comes along.[/quote]I agree with that. I don’t see Texas doing anything until everyone else has made a move.
mb21Quote Reply
Larry Walker had a great arm.
ACTQuote Reply
Thing is, OF arm is a pretty minor skill, which is why I don’t have a problem with using a weak arm for a defensive sub.
ACTQuote Reply
[quote name=mb21]I agree with that. I don’t see Texas doing anything until everyone else has made a move.[/quote]
Which is why I think they compromise on the network. This is starting to make much more sense. The LHN is simply a life preserver while the conference crumbles. It’s the most lucrative deal right now, and it leaves them with many options in a couple of years (maybe now).
When everyone else leaves, we can go to any conference we want and make the network regional.
Dr. Aneus TaintQuote Reply
Bo Jackson’s throw might’ve been in this one somewhere:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bs-1hPkLKeQ
Rice CubeQuote Reply
Woah. He broke a bat on his knee! I’ve never seen that before! I hope his manager gave him hell for that.
ACTQuote Reply
[quote name=ACT]Woah. He broke a bat on his knee! I’ve never seen that before! I hope his manager gave him hell for that.[/quote]
I’m pretty sure Bo Jackson would’ve broken his manager over his knee.
Before the hip injury at least.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=ACT]Woah. He broke a bat on his knee! I’ve never seen that before! I hope his manager gave him hell for that.[/quote]
He didn’t eat dinner for three days afterword.
BerseliusQuote Reply
Bo Jackson knows football too:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PBvOxicz-0
Rice CubeQuote Reply
I’m kind of surprised that the $35MM vote is so high, I honestly thought $30MM would be a reasonable cap on Castro’s hypothetical contract extension.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
RF Clemente era
Clemente: 67.1
Callison 43.3
Staub 28.9
Kaline 26.5
Aaron 24.9
CF Clemente era
Blair 31
Mays 28.8
Geronimo 18.6
Pinson 15.4
Unser 15.1
LF Clemente era
Yas 67.3
Stargell 19.7
Colavito, 18.3
Rose, 13.9
Moon 10.2
It also has the BArfield era and Gueerroro era.
Overall, you have Yastremski best at 67.3 followed by Clemente at 67.1. Yas was worth 5.5 runs per 162 games and Clemente worth 5.4. Barfield was worth 8.3 runs per 162 during the Barfield era and Ellis Valentine was worth 8.2 per 162. Andy Van Slyke was worth 6.4 per 162.
Bobby Higginson was worth 5.1, Larry Walker worth 4.9, Raul Mondesi 5.5, Orlando Merced 5.9, Jim Edmonds 4.5, Andruw Jones 4.7, Milton Bradley 4.9
Among HoF, the best per 162 is Yas followed by Clemente. Only Pete Rose, Ken Griffey Jr. and Willie Stargell were 3 per 162 or higher (none higher than 3.3). That’s how good Yas and Clemente were among HoF.
Interestingly, two guys with poor arms are among the best: Vince Coleman and Barry Bonds. Both of them were worth 2.2 per 162. As Bill James has pointed out, throwing isn’t only about arm strength. Both of those guys had great speed (Bonds when he was younger of course) so they got to balls more quickly than other fielders and held runners becuase of that. Also threw them out becuase runners misjudged how quickly they’d get to the ball. Kenny Lofton was worth 2.8 per 162. Another guy with a weak arm. doug Glanville with 2.6. Definitely not a strong arm.
So despite Campana’s weak arm, it wouldn’t surprise me if his arm rating was about average over a large enough sample.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=mb21]
From the Pac’s perspective, why on earth would they take OU and OSU? OU brings you that market and then some. OkSU brings you nothing OU doesn’t. How could you get the universitiy presidents to agree to bring them along? It would be like trying to get the Big Ten to agree to bring Iowa State into the conference. Why would the universities want to make the same money and give it out to more teams?
So I just don’t know how you get these people to agree to less money by adding OkSU. I figure one of them to the SEC and one of them to the Pac. Works nicely for both conferences.[/quote]
because it might be their only chance to land a big fish. the payout for the pac12 network is not as large as the b10, and they will still come out on top with osu, is my guess. if osu doesn’t get a pac12 offer, then ou chooses the sec in a heartbeat.
also, I think geography/time zone considerations become particularly relevant for the pac12. big12 castoffs will need a few local-ish games.
GWQuote Reply
During the Clemente era, if your outfield was Yastremski, Mays and Clemente they’d have saved you 12.9 runs over the course of a season with their arm. (dying laughing)
mb21Quote Reply
Barry Bonds had a poor arm? I’ve never heard that one before.
ACTQuote Reply
[quote name=ACT]Barry Bonds had a poor arm? I’ve never heard that one before.[/quote]
Well, y’know, he couldn’t throw out Sid Bream…
Rice CubeQuote Reply
i know that bobby cox said Ankiel had the best OF arm he had ever seen. Thats pretty high praise
dylanjQuote Reply
[quote name=GW]because it might be their only chance to land a big fish. the payout for the pac12 network is not as large as the b10, and they will still come out on top with osu, is my guess. if osu doesn’t get a pac12 offer, then ou chooses the sec in a heartbeat.
also, I think geography/time zone considerations become particularly relevant for the pac12. big12 castoffs will need a few local-ish games.[/quote]I know that, but the new tv contract pays Pac teams an average of $21 million per year over the next 12 years. OU would add to that. Adding to OkSU means each programs earns less money. Perhaps adding that one big name is worth less money and perhaps more 12 to 15 years from now, but I think you’ll have a hard time convincing indivudual universities to take less money than they already are.
OU and OkSU in one conference is not going to add anywhere close to $42 million per year. It’s probably closer to $25-30 million.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=ACT]Barry Bonds had a poor arm? I’ve never heard that one before.[/quote]Maybe I’m remembering late in his career.
mb21Quote Reply
Andre Dawson had probably the best arm I’ve ever seen live. I know he threw a couple of guys out at first on would-be singles to right and his throws to the plate were beautiful.
I’ve often wondered what Dunston would have been like in the outfield before he got too old for it to matter.
Aisle424Quote Reply
[quote name=mb21]I know that, but the new tv contract pays Pac teams an average of $21 million per year over the next 12 years. OU would add to that. Adding to OkSU means each programs earns less money. Perhaps adding that one big name is worth less money and perhaps more 12 to 15 years from now, but I think you’ll have a hard time convincing indivudual universities to take less money than they already are.
OU and OkSU in one conference is not going to add anywhere close to $42 million per year. It’s probably closer to $25-30 million.[/quote]
Probably about right.
We know that the pac offered osu last year, though. I think Larry Scott is convinced.
GWQuote Reply
[quote name=mb21]I know that, but the new tv contract pays Pac teams an average of $21 million per year over the next 12 years. OU would add to that. Adding to OkSU means each programs earns less money. Perhaps adding that one big name is worth less money and perhaps more 12 to 15 years from now, but I think you’ll have a hard time convincing indivudual universities to take less money than they already are.
OU and OkSU in one conference is not going to add anywhere close to $42 million per year. It’s probably closer to $25-30 million.[/quote]
Adding OU and OkSU to the Pac 12 doesn’t make much sense. Adding them in addition to Texas and Tech makes more sense.
Dr. Aneus TaintQuote Reply
KG
Allen Webster, RHP, Dodgers (Double-A Chattanooga): 6 IP, 2 H, 1 R, 3 BB, 4 K. Best start since 117-pitch shutout in late July; 5.04 ERA overall.
MishQuote Reply
What the fuck is this fucking bullshit, dj: http://www.kstatecollegian.com/news/k-state-s-ecokat-makes-green-debut-1.2611668
Dr. Aneus TaintQuote Reply
[quote name=GW]Probably about right.
We know that the pac offered osu last year, though. I think Larry Scott is convinced.[/quote]That was when they supposedly offered 6 from the Big 12 to join. That never made sense to me either. Why the hell would the Pac want Texas, Tech and A&M? Who knows?
I have read lately that OU is getting pissed off at Texas and blames them for the problems in the Big 12. It will be interesting to watch to see what happens.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=mb21]I have read lately that OU is getting pissed off at Texas and blames them for the problems in the Big 12. It will be interesting to watch to see what happens.[/quote]
If they are pissed, I look for them to bolt to the SEC, but keep Texas on the schedule. That game makes too much money for both schools to abandon it.
Dr. Aneus TaintQuote Reply
[quote name=Dr. Aneus Taint]Adding OU and OkSU to the Pac 12 doesn’t make much sense. Adding them in addition to Texas
and Techmakes more sense.[/quote]If the only way you can do it is to add those 4, fine, but I don’t think that’s the only way. OkSU and Tech add little to nothing to the Pac if Texas and OU go.Texas will still have the same problem with their network. If OU is pissed then you’re going to have every other Pac team pissed.
This whole thing is entertaining.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=Dr. Aneus Taint]If they are pissed, I look for them to bolt to the SEC, but keep Texas on the schedule. That game makes too much money for both schools to abandon it.[/quote]I’ll find some articles I’ve read over the last few days, but yeah, they aren’t happy with Texas and they absolutely do blame them for everything that’s gone on. Not enough to ruin the RRR apparently, but they’re not happy. I also think OU goes to the SEC.
mb21Quote Reply
the school wants to lower their energy costs while raising tuition to make more profit. Duh motherfucker
dylanjQuote Reply
[quote name=dylanj]the school wants to lower their energy costs while raising tuition to make more profit. Duh motherfucker[/quote]
Can they do it without the dumb kid from Roadwarrior and that faget cat?
Dr. Aneus TaintQuote Reply
[quote name=Dr. Aneus Taint]Can they do it without the dumb kid from Roadwarrior and that faget cat?[/quote]
i guess not
dylanjQuote Reply
[quote name=mb21]If the only way you can do it is to add those 4, fine, but I don’t think that’s the only way. OkSU and Tech add little to nothing to the Pac if Texas and OU go.
Texas will still have the same problem with their network. If OU is pissed then you’re going to have every other Pac team pissed.
This whole thing is entertaining.[/quote]
The only way Texas is absolutely free to do what they want is if all the Texas schools move on first. aggy is gone, so that leaves Tech and Baylor. Texas could feasibly take Tech to the Pac 12. Baylor won’t make the cut. If Texas WANTS to go to the Pac 12, they can wait until all the dominoes fall or go with Tech now.
Dr. Aneus TaintQuote Reply
so if Boise State comes to the Big 12 does the conference stay together?
dylanjQuote Reply
Aaron Rowand and Tejada=======> DFA
bubblesdachimpQuote Reply
(dying laughing)
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/blog/big_league_stew/post/Such-a-tease-Albert-Pujols-taunts-denies-Brewe?urn=mlb-wp17848
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=mb21]During the Clemente era, if your outfield was Yastremski, Mays and Clemente they’d have saved you 12.9 runs over the course of a season with their arm. (dying laughing)[/quote]
That is Pena-esque run saving.
Aisle424Quote Reply
It was the injuries!
http://muskat.mlblogs.com/2011/08/31/831-august-happenings/
Rice CubeQuote Reply
Giants ate 30.5 million over this year and next
bubblesdachimpQuote Reply
shit: http://obstructedview.net/chicago-cubs/articles/how-much-is-starlin-castro-worth-over-a-5-year-extension.html
mb21Quote Reply