Bud Selig is none too happy with the Mets. Apparently, Bud wanted to deny them the ability to wear NYPD, NYFD, and other first responders’ hats in favor of the the MLB sanctioned hats (which are on sale now, by the way!) and have them just shut up and do what he said. It was, I guess, wrong of the Mets to have human feelings of disappointment, sorrow and even some anger for being denied the ability to honor the heroes of that tragic day ten years ago.
A Mets official told the newspaper that the commissioner said the team threw the league “under the bus.”
How, exactly, is telling reporters that they weren’t allowed to wear the hats, when they were, in fact, told they were not allowed to wear the hats by Mr. Joe Torre, MLB disciplinarian and Bud Selig employee, the new definition of throwing someone under a bus? That’s what happened, isn’t it?
Torre tries to explain why the Mets criticism of the league office is unfair:
“Nothing was ordered,” he said during an interview on Sirius XM Radio. “I think they were sent a memo, but in no way was it heavy-handed. I don’t think money was ever an issue or they were ever threatened with a heavy-fisted fine. If that’s the case, I have no knowledge of it.”
I see. They were told they weren’t allowed to wear the hats, but they weren’t explicitly told what the punishment would be if they went against the memo-that-wasn’t-an-order-but-more-of-a-suggestion-that-needed-to-be-followed.
That’s like telling a kid that he needs to eat his vegetables and getting mad that the kid went and complained to his friends that he had to eat lima beans.
“Hey, we never said Johnny would get spanked or have his XBox taken away,” said Dad. “We told him we expected him to eat a horrible, disgusting substance instead of eating candy and we are, frankly, a little peeved that he mentioned how much he hated that decision to his friends during naptime. I mean, what the hell is that all about? Eat the damn lima beans and like it because I said so.”
Maybe Torre means that the Mets could have worn the hats during the game and MLB wouldn’t have fined them? Maybe that is what he is implying by saying they were never threatened with a big fine.
Maybe he delivered his official memo but also verbally said something like, “We do not approve of your wearing the hats.” (wink) “We have some really appropriate hats designed to commemorate 9/11 that all the teams will be wearing.” (wink) “But you know how stuff happens, maybe those hats don’t fit right or something.” (wink) “I’m not saying they don’t fit, but if they happened to not fit and you happened to have those NYPD hats laying around,” (wink) “I think we might understand if you had no choice but to wear those hats.” (wink) (wink)
Maybe he expected the Mets to have asked what the punishment would be before just going ahead and blindly following his ruling. This isn’t exactly the Marines where “orders get followed or people die.” It’s baseball. Maybe this was an order that wasn’t really an order and the Mets failed to understand that. Maybe this is how the discussion should have gone, in Torre and Bud’s eyes:
Mets: Hey, can we wear these NYPD hats, it means an awful lot to us personally and to the city.
Torre: No, you should wear these official 9/11 hats.
Mets: Well, what would happen if we wore the NYPD hats anyway?
Torre: (looks around) I would be displeased.
Mets: How displeased? Would you fine us?
Torre: Not necessarily.
Mets: Would we lose draft picks or waiver rights or anything like that?
Torre: Of course not.
Mets: So what would happen?
Torre: I would be displeased.
Mets: Displeased…
Torre: Yes. If anyone asks, I would have to say I was displeased.
Mets: I think I get it.
Torre: So you understand that I can not give you permission to wear those hats?
Mets: Yes.
Torre: And you understand that I would be displeased if you did not abide by my decision?
Mets: Yes.
Torre: Very good. (wink)
Instead, what Torre seems to be saying is that they asked, he said no, and the Mets just went with it. He thought the case was closed and was surprised to find out they were upset about it. He can’t be blamed because the Mets didn’t read between the lines. Where is Mike Quade to explain unwritten rules when you need him?
But really, what this probably comes down to is a short-sighted decision made by someone who didn’t feel compelled to take extenuating circumstances into account in the decision. The MLB has existing rules about player uniforms, and had created an officially sanctioned exception they felt was enough of a tribute. Now they are seeing the bigger picture and are embarassed, so rather than own up to making a decision in haste, or possibly even admitting an error in judgement, they would rather try to turn the blame back on the team that “created” the mess by having the temerity to want to do something original and meaningful instead of corporately approved and branded.
Well played, Bud. You had an opportunity to show that you care about people ahead of profits; that you care about a sense of unity ahead of a rulebook and uniform code; and you care about doing what is right ahead of blindly wielding supreme executive power over your little fiefdom. You couldn’t have swung and missed more if you were Corey Patterson swinging at a low and inside breaking ball.
What makes all of this hilarious and sad is that this is all about guys wearing hats while playing a children’s game. MB said it about as well as anyone in the last comment thread:
I just don’t understand the big deal about the hats. They’re fucking hats. The Mets weren’t asking to wear a different uniform. I could understand if MLB didn’t want them to do that, but this is a hat. A fucking hat. A motherfucking hat. It’s beyond belief that MLB would give a shit about something like that on 9/11. Unbelievable.
Again, well played, Bud. Expect your humanitarian award any day now.
Comments
What is more, as Mike and Mike pointed out this morning, MLB allowed them to wear the hats 10 years ago.
Bud Selig is a sack of shit stuffed into a Sears and Roebuck dress shirt.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]What is more, as Mike and Mike pointed out this morning, MLB allowed them to wear the hats 10 years ago.
Bud Selig is a sack of shit stuffed into a Sears and Roebuck dress shirt.[/quote]
They hadn’t had time to create, brand and sell MLB licensed commemorative hats 10 years ago, MO.
Aisle424Quote Reply
[quote name=Aisle424]They hadn’t had time to create, brand and sell MLB licensed commemorative hats 10 years ago, MO.[/quote]Pretty much. But should we expect anything less from a used-car salesman?
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Aisle424]Sorry, MB.
Didn’t see you had new shit up before I published my new shit:
http://obstructedview.net/articles/major-league-baseball/bud-selig-is-mad-everyone-knows-hes-an-unfeeling-asshole.html%5B/quote%5DJust don’t do it again. My 3 or 4 sentence post was very important. (dying laughing)
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=mb21]Just don’t do it again. My 3 or 4 sentence post was very important. (dying laughing)[/quote]
Of course, I will not eat dinner and will sit quietly and think about what I did.
Aisle424Quote Reply
[quote name=mb21]Just don’t do it again. My 3 or 4 sentence post was very important. (dying laughing)[/quote]Bud Selig would have made him take it down to avoid setting a problematic precedent.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Aisle424]Of course, I will not eat dinner and will sit quietly and think about what I did.[/quote]And take off that FDNY hat, commie.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
I was shocked to see the avalanche of posts today. The next thing you know, AC will be posting something and it will be like the very first day of OV.
Aisle424Quote Reply
It’s like the 2004 Republican National Convention up in here today.
Chris DickersonQuote Reply
[quote name=Aisle424]Of course, I will not eat dinner and will sit quietly and think about what I did.[/quote]Don’t have fun either.
mb21Quote Reply
Dear Tom Ricketts,
We will set up a PayPal fund to collect money to help pay any fines you incur by having the Cubs wear NYPD, FDNY, and the other hats during the first game of the next homestand.
I will also personally donate $100 towards that fund.
Do it.
Aisle424Quote Reply
[quote name=mb21]Don’t have fun either.[/quote]
I thought I was supposed to have fun. Now I’m confused.
Aisle424Quote Reply
(dying laughing) http://obstructedview.net/tag/this-is-about-motherfucking-hats.html
mb21Quote Reply
Hats rhymes with cats.
Being serious for a moment, I don’t like how something that should’ve been a noble and poignant moment has turned into a petty shouting match. Should’ve just let them wear the hats.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=Chris Dickerson]It’s like the 2004 Republican National Convention up in here today.[/quote]
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Rice Cube]Hats rhymes with cats.
Being serious for a moment, I don’t like how something that should’ve been a noble and poignant moment has turned into a petty shouting match. Should’ve just let them wear the hats.[/quote]
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Rice Cube]Hats rhymes with cats.
Being serious for a moment, I don’t like how something that should’ve been a noble and poignant moment has turned into a petty shouting match. Should’ve just let them wear the hats.[/quote]
If the Mets are allowed to wear the hats, the terrorists win.
/Selig’d
Aisle424Quote Reply
I had thought Mark Shapiro was the Indians GM when they won their two pennants in the 1990s but I guess he became GM after that. I read that he got some executive of the year awards in the 2000s though. Was he just promoted to team president afterwards? I guess when you’re the team president you make more $ so I’m just wondering why he’d jump ship unless the Indians were about to fire him for this year’s tanking.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
Chris, you asked in the last thread why the Yankees didn’t just go ahead and wear the hats. They weren’t in New York. Wearing them in NY would obviously have had more impact.
mb21Quote Reply
Hey, fuck you. I’d let them wear the hats.
An Unfeeling AssholeQuote Reply
[quote name=mb21]Chris, you asked in the last thread why the Yankees didn’t just go ahead and wear the hats. They weren’t in New York. Wearing them in NY would obviously have had more impact.[/quote]What would have been awesome is if other teams heard about this and they all wore them. Is Selig really going to fine everyone?
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
I think it was silly by Selig no doubt, but i think way too much is being made of it..
bubblesdachimpQuote Reply
[quote name=bubblesdachimp]I think it was silly by Selig no doubt, but i think way too much is being made of it..[/quote]
I pretty much let it go after a few tweets that night, but now he’s getting all indignant and getting pissed at the Mets for being pissed at him. Fuck him.
They made their decision and now they can wear it.
Aisle424Quote Reply
[quote name=mb21]Chris, you asked in the last thread why the Yankees didn’t just go ahead and wear the hats. They weren’t in New York. Wearing them in NY would obviously have had more impact.[/quote]
So it wasn’t honor enough because they were on the road?
I get it, their wearing of tribute hats during a game within city limits is critical to the healing process and MLB has robbed them of their rights to express themselves. What is probably most unfortunate is that the Mets have ZERO other options to pay their respects.
The backlash here is just retarded. The Mets and everyone else need to quit whining.
Chris DickersonQuote Reply
The Mets should send a first responder hat to Selig as an apology.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=Chris Dickerson]
The backlash here is just retarded. The Mets and everyone else need to quit whining.[/quote]
More ridiculous than Selig saying they threw him “under the bus” and Torre justifying it? Not really.
melissaQuote Reply
NYPD has been historically a controversial department in New York. I can understand why rules would be in place to separate the institution of MLB from the NYPD, even if the gesture was meant honestly.
ZappBranniganQuote Reply
[quote name=ZappBrannigan]NYPD has been historically a controversial department in New York. I can understand why rules would be in place to separate the institution of MLB from the NYPD, even if the gesture was meant honestly.[/quote]
The fact that they wore them 10 years ago and that it was to honor the fallen officers of a national tragedy really negates your point.
melissaQuote Reply
I’ve always thought highly of Shapiro, though in retrospect, the results haven’t been all that impressive.
GWQuote Reply
[quote name=melissa]The fact that they wore them 10 years ago and that it was to honor the fallen officers of a national tragedy really negates your point.[/quote]
I disagree. The time immediately after 9-11 was a chaotic and confusing time, as well as really emotionally disorienting to a lot of people. If the MLB decides to make a policy to separate a public institution from themselves, they have every right to do so.
I hardly think because they did something once it means they always must act similarly. That’s a consistent, but flawed line of thinking. The fact that the city was so emotionally jacked up immediately after the attacks is more then enough reason for a one time breach of policy.
ZappBranniganQuote Reply
[quote name=ZappBrannigan]NYPD has been historically a controversial department in New York. I can understand why rules would be in place to separate the institution of MLB from the NYPD, even if the gesture was meant honestly.[/quote]Only that wasn’t the rationale behind the move, at all. MLB said they didn’t want to set a precedent for teams to wear non-MLB uniform items as tribute. There were no remarks made in regards to the point you’re making. Basically Selig is saying if they let the Mets wear these hats, there’d be nothing to stop, say, the Cubs from wearing Harry Caray’s Restaurant hats as a tribute to Harry one night. MLB has allowed to teams broad leeway with uniform patches to facilitate tributes and they felt the hats were going above and beyond that policy.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
Mariotti pleaded no contest to his domestic violence charges. Probation and community service.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Aisle424]I pretty much let it go after a few tweets that night, but now he’s getting all indignant and getting pissed at the Mets for being pissed at him. Fuck him.
They made their decision and now they can wear it.[/quote]
Well its kinda like if you ask your boss if you can do something special he says no than you blast him in front of everyone.. He is not going to be pleased
bubblesdachimpQuote Reply
[quote name=bubblesdachimp]Well its kinda like if you ask your boss if you can do something special he says no than you blast him in front of everyone.. He is not going to be pleased[/quote]No, it’s more like you ask your boss, s/he tells you to go fuck yourself and then expects you to pretend like s/he never said anything.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
Do we think Manny did this after hitting his wife the other night?
bubblesdachimpQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]Only that wasn’t the rationale behind the move, at all. MLB said they didn’t want to set a precedent for teams to wear non-MLB uniform items as tribute. There were no remarks made in regards to the point you’re making. Basically Selig is saying if they let the Mets wear these hats, there’d be nothing to stop, say, the Cubs from wearing Harry Caray’s Restaurant hats as a tribute to Harry one night. MLB has allowed to teams broad leeway with uniform patches to facilitate tributes and they felt the hats were going above and beyond that policy.[/quote]
The NYPD is an organization just like any other organization that might be printing hats. So yes, it does apply. I was merely pointing out a reason that he would be unwilling to compromise on NPYD hats (the controversial nature of the department) despite their relationship to 9-11.
ZappBranniganQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]No, it’s more like you ask your boss, s/he tells you to go fuck yourself and then expects you to pretend like s/he never said anything.[/quote]
Agree to disagree
(dying laughing) (dying laughing) (dying laughing)
bubblesdachimpQuote Reply
[quote name=ZappBrannigan]The NYPD is an organization just like any other organization that might be printing hats. So yes, it does apply. I was merely pointing out a reason that he would be unwilling to compromise on NPYD hats (the controversial nature of the department) despite their relationship to 9-11.[/quote]But that’s irrelevant. It wasn’t the stated rationale for MLB making the move, period. All you’re doing is speculating about motives. There has no been one single comment from MLB stating anything remotely close to your claim.
MLB feels like this would open the door to unlimited use of non-approved uniform items and they’ve acted to prevent such an breach, period. There’s been no milquetoast moralizing about the NYPD’s problematic history from MLB. None. That topic is wholly irrelevant to this particular discussion.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=bubblesdachimp]Agree to disagree
(dying laughing) (dying laughing) (dying laughing)[/quote]Just don’t tell anyone I said so.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]No, it’s more like you ask your boss, s/he tells you to go fuck yourself and then expects you to pretend like s/he never said anything.[/quote]And the thing you asked your boss’ permission for is to pass around a Get Well card for your spouse with cancer (that everyone in the office adores, without exception) during lunch one day.
GBTSQuote Reply
[quote name=Aisle424]I pretty much let it go after a few tweets that night, but now he’s getting all indignant and getting pissed at the Mets for being pissed at him. Fuck him.
They made their decision and now they can wear it.[/quote]Yeah, it was annoying, but I understand MLB’s reasons for doing it. But Selig’s response is friggin’ asinine. Dude needs to get a fucking grip.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
Something I read during hat-gate on Sunday suggested that when the Yankees/Mets wore them 10 years ago they were also in defiance of MLB rules.
BerseliusQuote Reply
[quote name=Berselius]Something I read during hat-gate on Sunday suggested that when the Yankees/Mets wore them 10 years ago they were also in defiance of MLB rules.[/quote]The Mets were told not to wear them, Todd Zeille said MLB would have to rip them off their heads to stop them, and they weren’t fined.
GBTSQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]But that’s irrelevant. It wasn’t the stated rationale for MLB making the move, period. All you’re doing is speculating about motives. There has no been one single comment from MLB stating anything remotely close to your claim.
MLB feels like this would open the door to unlimited use of non-approved uniform items and they’ve acted to prevent such an breach, period. There’s been no milquetoast moralizing about the NYPD’s problematic history from MLB. None. That topic is wholly irrelevant to this particular discussion.[/quote]
It would also be irrelevant in regards to why FDNY hats would not be allowed. The hats weren’t allowed because MLB wants to market their “tribute” hats. Someone as cynical as myself might even believe that MLB is engaging in profiteering.
melissaQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]No, it’s more like you ask your boss, s/he tells you to go fuck yourself and then expects you to pretend like s/he never said anything.[/quote]We must work for the same guy.
uncle daveQuote Reply
[quote name=Berselius]Something I read during hat-gate on Sunday suggested that when the Yankees/Mets wore them 10 years ago they were also in defiance of MLB rules.[/quote]I believe MLB chose not to fine them, though. Anytime someone wears a non-approved uniform item, it’s a breach, but in certain cases, MLB chooses to overlook it. I wouldn’t be surprised if the upshot of this thing is some sort of league-wide uniform item mandated, worn, and then auctioned off to give money to 9/11 families, for 9/11 every season from now on, a là Jackie Robinson Day and the Breast Cancer Awareness uniform things.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
Nice write-up on Castro’s maturation and Quade’s handling of Castro by Wittenmyer: http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/cubs/7625833-573/cubs-starlin-castro-preparing-for-leader-role-as-vets-may-be-out-in-12.html
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
You know, Selig could have just gotten out in front of this whole thing and explained himself and I doubt there would have been this much of a hullabaloo. But he tried to do it quietly and it came off like he was trying to sneak something by everyone and now it’s blown up in his face. The only way he can save this thing is just to say the league will have a more substantial tribute next season and going forward. You know, you put the logos from the first responders in the on deck circles, or on the bases, let the players wear team-colored armbands with the logos on them, maybe even stitch them onto the special caps…MLB could have handled this a lot better and still gotten the desired result without ruffling so many feathers.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]I believe MLB chose not to fine them, though. Anytime someone wears a non-approved uniform item, it’s a breach, but in certain cases, MLB chooses to overlook it. I wouldn’t be surprised if the upshot of this thing is some sort of league-wide uniform item mandated, worn, and then auctioned off to give money to 9/11 families, for 9/11 every season from now on, a là Jackie Robinson Day and the Breast Cancer Awareness uniform things.[/quote]
MLB has a lot more egg on its face, but I’m kind of annoyed with the Mets for not giving Selig the finger. It’s not my money being put at risk though (dying laughing)
BerseliusQuote Reply
Stupid question but i have to ask it… has alfonso benn that bad?
bubblesdachimpQuote Reply
Bryan LaHair —> next Nippon Ham Fighter
http://espn.go.com/blog/chicago/cubs/post/_/id/6460/sources-japanese-clubs-interested-in-lahair
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=Berselius]MLB has a lot more egg on its face, but I’m kind of annoyed with the Mets for not giving Selig the finger. It’s not my money being put at risk though (dying laughing)[/quote]Yeah, I can’t blame them with the money trouble they’re in. They can’t really afford a “MLB wants to set an precedent”-type of fine. I just think MLB could have handled this much more delicately. Right now, they look crass and cold.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=bubblesdachimp]Stupid question but i have to ask it… has alfonso benn that bad?[/quote]
OBP still under .300 so I guess you could say he’s had issues (dying laughing)
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=Rice Cube]OBP still under .300 so I guess you could say he’s had issues (dying laughing)[/quote]
I mean he has an OPS almost at .765..
A little confused
bubblesdachimpQuote Reply
[quote name=bubblesdachimp]Stupid question but i have to ask it… has alfonso benn that bad?[/quote]He has had an odd season. Fangraphs has him at 1.1 WAR. His defense has been bad, and his OBP has been mostly sub.300, but he’s still managed a slightly above average OPS+ (105) and has shown more power than I expected. Still, he’s not an everyday player anymore, and you can’t really pay a guy $18 mil/yr to platoon and/or pinch hit.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
I really want to start a Soriano —> 1B lobby but I doubt it will ever happen especially if they want to contend. I’m still not sure whether it’s beneficial to just release him.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]He has had an odd season. Fangraphs has him at 1.1 WAR. His defense has been bad, and his OBP has been mostly sub.300, but he’s still managed a slightly above average OPS+ (105) and has shown more power than I expected. Still, he’s not an everyday player anymore, and you can’t really pay a guy $18 mil/yr to platoon and/or pinch hit.[/quote]
Fair enough. My next question then is how much we have to pay so a team can let him DH?
As silly as this is I think he still has some value as a slugging DH. I wouldnt just eat 18 million. You have to try and at least save 3 million a year
bubblesdachimpQuote Reply
[quote name=Rice Cube]I really want to start a Soriano —> 1B lobby but I doubt it will ever happen especially if they want to contend. I’m still not sure whether it’s beneficial to just release him.[/quote]I think that would be an unmitigated disaster. He was never a good IF defender, and on balky legs, you have to imagine that’s probably even more the case now.
I dunno. You have to weight the cost of buying him out vs. paying him full-time money to be a part-time player. It’s a tough call, and I don’t envy Ricketts and the new GM having to make it.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]I think that would be an unmitigated disaster. He was never a good IF defender, and on balky legs, you have to imagine that’s probably even more the case now.
I dunno. You have to weight the cost of buying him out vs. paying him full-time money to be a part-time player. It’s a tough call, and I don’t envy Ricketts and the new GM having to make it.[/quote]
But why would Soriano take a buy out? Whats in it for him?
bubblesdachimpQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]I think that would be an unmitigated disaster. He was never a good IF defender, and on balky legs, you have to imagine that’s probably even more the case now.
I dunno. You have to weight the cost of buying him out vs. paying him full-time money to be a part-time player. It’s a tough call, and I don’t envy Ricketts and the new GM having to make it.[/quote]
Yeah, I see that concern a lot but I think it’s a bit different to play 2B or SS than 1B so it would’ve been an interesting experiment.
I think if you’re spending that much on a guy and you’re going to eat most of it in a trade, you might as well see how well he does with regular time for at least the next season before you dump him.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=bubblesdachimp]Fair enough. My next question then is how much we have to pay so a team can let him DH?
As silly as this is I think he still has some value as a slugging DH. I wouldnt just eat 18 million. You have to try and at least save 3 million a year[/quote]There’s a few factors here, to my mind:
1.) In a trade, you’ll eat, at minimum, somewhere around 80% of the remaining money on the deal, and you won’t get shit in return, and that’s IF you can find a taker and get Soriano to waive his NTC.
2.) It’s likely Soriano would take a buyout of some sort, but I doubt MLBPA would like that very much and they’ve already pissed off MLBPA this year. Unless there’s a buyout clause in Soriano’s deal (Cot’s doesn’t know about it if there is)
3.) You have to take the option that clears the most money in the least amount of time. That might be releasing him. A trade likely costs the Cubs serious cash, and the buyout could be messy. Like I said, getting shut of his and Z’s deals will not be easy.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=bubblesdachimp]But why would Soriano take a buy out? Whats in it for him?[/quote]Well, he’d become a FA, so he’d have his pick of destinations while still taking home some money. And…well, that’s about it. (dying laughing)
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Rice Cube]Yeah, I see that concern a lot but I think it’s a bit different to play 2B or SS than 1B so it would’ve been an interesting experiment.
I think if you’re spending that much on a guy and you’re going to eat most of it in a trade, you might as well see how well he does with regular time for at least the next season before you dump him.[/quote]Eh. I’d rather have LaHair, there, honestly. His bat probably won’t be worse than Soriano’s, with the added bonus of LaHair being able to use his legs.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]Well, he’d become a FA, so he’d have his pick of destinations while still taking home some money. And…well, that’s about it. (dying laughing)[/quote]
But if he doesnt agree to waive any money he still gets 18 million and gets to be a free agent as well
bubblesdachimpQuote Reply
[quote name=bubblesdachimp]But if he doesnt agree to waive any money he still gets 18 million and gets to be a free agent as well[/quote]Right. But he can get 18 mil once, or probably a bit more of that spread out in a buyout. If the Cubs want to contend, they have to clear the decks for next year so they can make a run at Fielder and at least one FA SP. So you could spread the cash over say the next three season and spend a bit more in the long run and maybe get Soriano to bite. Maybe not the wisest thing to do, but they need cash if they want to contend in 2012 and they need it quick.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]Right. But he can get 18 mil once, or probably a bit more of that spread out in a buyout. If the Cubs want to contend, they have to clear the decks for next year so they can make a run at Fielder and at least one FA SP. So you could spread the cash over say the next three season and spend a bit more in the long run and maybe get Soriano to bite. Maybe not the wisest thing to do, but they need cash if they want to contend in 2012 and they need it quick.[/quote]
This will sound stupid but do players ever do that? Take deferred payments? It seems like a moronic decision to make sorianos 54 million last on the books a day longer than it needs to
bubblesdachimpQuote Reply
[quote name=bubblesdachimp]This will sound stupid but do players ever do that? Take deferred payments? It seems like a moronic decision to make sorianos 54 million last on the books a day longer than it needs to[/quote]A few guys have done it, although I can’t recall specific players. Beltran actually has deferred money written into his deal, at interest (still (dying laughing) about that every time I see it)! Soriano doesn’t strike me as a guy who will hold the club hostage, in reality. If they approach him in the right way, I’m sure they can work something out. A lot of that will depend on the new GM and how much money Ricketts is going to give him.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
They’d pretty much have to restructure the entire contract right? There’s no buyout language in Soriano’s contract that I know of. Everything is guaranteed, unless you know something I do not know. I don’t think he would just give up $54MM like that.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]Yeah, I can’t blame them with the money trouble they’re in. They can’t really afford a “MLB wants to set an precedent”-type of fine. I just think MLB could have handled this much more delicately. Right now, they look crass and cold.[/quote]
I think it would be the players, not the org who would be fined
BerseliusQuote Reply
Here’s how I see it: You release Soriano, you pay 100%, you trade Soriano, you pay 80%, you buy him out, you pay ?%. All of them are a gamble in one way or another. It’s just which one you see to be the bigger risk.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
I guess the real question is does Alfonso Soriano BELIEVE Alfonso Soriano was productive this year.
Cuase I have a hard time believeing that IF Soriano thinks he was productive this year. That he is going to do anything too crazy to help out the Cubs
bubblesdachimpQuote Reply
[quote name=Berselius]I think it would be the players, not the org who would be fined[/quote]Really? Then, yeah, I’m more than willing to spend someone else’s money and say they should have just gone for it. (dying laughing)
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=bubblesdachimp]I guess the real question is does Alfonso Soriano BELIEVE Alfonso Soriano was productive this year.
Cuase I have a hard time believeing that IF Soriano thinks he was productive this year. That he is going to do anything too crazy to help out the Cubs[/quote]I dunno. I’d rather just not engage in this kind of armchair psychoanalysis. Nothing Soriano has ever said indicates he’d hold the Cubs hostage over money. But who knows once his agent and MLBPA get involved.
I think what will happen, regardless of what we say here, is that the Cubs try and trade him and when/if they can’t, he’ll just be released.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
What would you say the latest date Soriano is a cub?
Can we take a poll?
I think he will be on the opening day roster
bubblesdachimpQuote Reply
[quote name=bubblesdachimp]What would you say the latest date Soriano is a cub?
Can we take a poll?
I think he will be on the opening day roster[/quote]I would be shocked. I think he’s gone one way or another by the end of February.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
I think once we know who the GM is it may be more apparent what they’d do with Soriano (and everyone else for that matter). As of right now I think the only player who they get rid of for sure is Grabow (dying laughing)
Rice CubeQuote Reply
Grabows a free agent is he not?
I jsut wonder if Ricketts will sign off on flughing away 54 million.. That matter IMO more than who the new GM is…
bubblesdachimpQuote Reply
[quote name=Rice Cube]I think once we know who the GM is it may be more apparent what they’d do with Soriano (and everyone else for that matter). As of right now I think the only player who they get rid of for sure is Grabow (dying laughing)[/quote](dying laughing), Z is prob Priority Exit #1.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]I dunno. I’d rather just not engage in this kind of armchair psychoanalysis. Nothing Soriano has ever said indicates he’d hold the Cubs hostage over money. But who knows once his agent and MLBPA get involved.
I think what will happen, regardless of what we say here, is that the Cubs try and trade him and when/if they can’t, he’ll just be released.[/quote]
I think they release him. MB thinks they can buy him out for dimes on the dollar, but I think his agent would rightly regard it as crazy talk.
BerseliusQuote Reply
[quote name=bubblesdachimp]Grabows a free agent is he not?
I jsut wonder if Ricketts will sign off on flughing away 54 million.. That matter IMO more than who the new GM is…[/quote]Yes, he is.
I agree. Who the GM is doesn’t matter; what matters is how much money Ricketts gives him.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]I would be shocked. I think he’s gone one way or another by the end of February.[/quote]
Agreed. They might hang on to him through spring training and release him in final cuts, though if they don’t move him by the start of spring training those odds aren’t going to increase.
BerseliusQuote Reply
[quote name=Berselius]I think they release him. MB thinks they can buy him out for dimes on the dollar, but I think his agent would rightly regard it as crazy talk.[/quote]The buyout is a gamble. I think they could get it done for somewhere around 60-70¢ on the dollar. But that’s pure speculation on my part.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
Releasing Z and Soriano is paying $72MM or whatever it is combined for no production though. That’s gotta be rough.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=Berselius]Agreed. They might hang on to him through spring training and release him in final cuts, though if they don’t move him by the start of spring training those odds aren’t going to increase.[/quote]Plus, if they do want Fielder, they’ll want him in before ST, and that means they have to clear the decks of Z and Sori’s contracts before ST.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
I think it’d be easier to straight up release Z since he just has that one year left.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=Rice Cube]Releasing Z and Soriano is paying $72MM or whatever it is combined for no production though. That’s gotta be rough.[/quote]Right, but there’s not a chance in hell you’re going to get $72 mil worth of production from them, combined, even if they are here.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Rice Cube]I think it’d be easier to straight up release Z since he just has that one year left.[/quote]Yeah, and Z, despite his baggage, might be a shade more tradeable, though not much.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Rice Cube]Releasing Z and Soriano is paying $72MM or whatever it is combined for no production though. That’s gotta be rough.[/quote]
It’s a sunk cost. Soriano is close to replacement level going forward, and Z isn’t going to pitch another game for the Cubs anyway. The players have no incentive but ego to take anything less, and millions of dollars can go a long way towards comforting a bruised ego.
BerseliusQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]Right, but there’s not a chance in hell you’re going to get $10 mil worth of production from them, combined, even if they are here.[/quote]
.
BerseliusQuote Reply
My take is that the money owed them is sunk cost. If you can spend that money in releasing them and add wins by signing an impact player or two, you do it.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Berselius]It’s a sunk cost. Soriano is close to replacement level going forward, and Z isn’t going to pitch another game for the Cubs anyway. The players have no incentive but ego to take anything less, and millions of dollars can go a long way towards comforting a bruised ego.[/quote]Exactly.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
I understand the sunk cost thing but I don’t know how much ego you need to just give up $54MM of guaranteed money.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
I just don’t see either guy accepting a buyout. They’ll make the Cubs eat the money after outright release.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
If you hit 25 homeruns and drove in 85 are you taking a 30% buyout? No fucking way. You might be asking for an extension
bubblesdachimpQuote Reply
[quote name=Rice Cube]I just don’t see either guy accepting a buyout. They’ll make the Cubs eat the money after outright release.[/quote]Z won’t have to make that choice, because he’ll either be traded or cut. Soriano probably won’t be offered the choice, either. But I don’t think either guy would play hardball about a buyout.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
Anyone else remember those Ellsbury for Theriot rumors back in 2009?
*sigh*
GBTSQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]But that’s irrelevant. It wasn’t the stated rationale for MLB making the move, period. All you’re doing is speculating about motives. There has no been one single comment from MLB stating anything remotely close to your claim.
MLB feels like this would open the door to unlimited use of non-approved uniform items and they’ve acted to prevent such an breach, period. There’s been no milquetoast moralizing about the NYPD’s problematic history from MLB. None. That topic is wholly irrelevant to this particular discussion.[/quote]
Of course it’s speculation, but that hardly makes it irrelevant or invalid just because it’s not provable. I’m not suggesting that speculation is THE reason the MLB doesn’t allow them to wear the hats. Obviously the reason is the policy you stated.
I was speculating (a speculation that is soundly grounded in politics and real phenomenon regarding the NYPD) a reason why Selig would not want to break the policy even for 9-11. It could be one of many reasons why exceptions were not made for 9-11; suggesting Selig must ONLY want to stick to policy as the primary reason for this decision is probably not actually reflective of the situation.
That’s not irrelevant. But you can keep saying it if you want. The attitude around here right now is ridiculous.
ZappBranniganQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]Z won’t have to make that choice, because he’ll either be traded or cut. Soriano probably won’t be offered the choice, either. But I don’t think either guy would play hardball about a buyout.[/quote]
I think the right move is probably to release both guys if you can’t trade them, but walking away from that much guaranteed $$ is just mind-boggling to me (dying laughing)
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]Z won’t have to make that choice, because he’ll either be traded or cut. Soriano probably won’t be offered the choice, either. But I don’t think either guy would play hardball about a buyout.[/quote]
Your right i dont think they will play hardball since they will get every single penny and go play for someone else
bubblesdachimpQuote Reply
[quote name=bubblesdachimp]If you hit 25 homeruns and drove in 85 are you taking a 30% buyout? No fucking way. You might be asking for an extension[/quote]I said 70% buyout. And even the Cubs know better than to let a guy use counting stats in a contract negotiation. His OBP is abysmal, his speed is gone, and his defense is awful. By Fangraphs value table, he’s been overpaid by ~$24 mil over the last three seasons.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=ZappBrannigan]Of course it’s speculation, but that hardly makes it irrelevant or invalid just because it’s not provable. I’m not suggesting that speculation is THE reason the MLB doesn’t allow them to wear the hats. Obviously the reason is the policy you stated.
I was speculating (a speculation that is soundly grounded in politics and real phenomenon regarding the NYPD) a reason why Selig would not want to break the policy even for 9-11. It could be one of many reasons why exceptions were not made for 9-11; suggesting Selig must ONLY want to stick to policy as the primary reason for this decision is probably not actually reflective of the situation.
That’s not irrelevant. But you can keep saying it if you want. The attitude around here right now is ridiculous.[/quote]You’re trying to moralize an issue that’s already overmoralized. There’s not a single shred of evidence for the view you’re proffering. It’s beyond speculation and bordering on fabulism.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=ZappBrannigan]Of course it’s speculation, but that hardly makes it irrelevant or invalid just because it’s not provable. I’m not suggesting that speculation is THE reason the MLB doesn’t allow them to wear the hats. Obviously the reason is the policy you stated.
I was speculating (a speculation that is soundly grounded in politics and real phenomenon regarding the NYPD) a reason why Selig would not want to break the policy even for 9-11. It could be one of many reasons why exceptions were not made for 9-11; suggesting Selig must ONLY want to stick to policy as the primary reason for this decision is probably not actually reflective of the situation.
That’s not irrelevant. But you can keep saying it if you want. The attitude around here right now is ridiculous.[/quote]
Furthermore, Selig obviously only gave one reason for not wanting them to wear the hats (not wanting to break policy), but that hardly means that is the only reason. For all the talk on here about all the closed door politics and discussion in baseball that the fans never know about it, treating that speculation (that is firmly grounded, I might add) with scorn because Selig didn’t outright list it as a reason isn’t very intellectually honest in my opinion.
ZappBranniganQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]I said 70% buyout. And even the Cubs know better than to let a guy use counting stats in a contract negotiation. His OBP is abysmal, his speed is gone, and his defense is awful. By Fangraphs value table, he’s been overpaid by ~$24 mil over the last three seasons.[/quote]
(dying laughing) (dying laughing) (dying laughing)
bubblesdachimpQuote Reply
[quote name=bubblesdachimp]Your right i dont think they will play hardball since they will get every single penny and go play for someone else[/quote]Yeah, it’s very likely both are just cut and go elsehwere. Buyouts aren’t very common, as far as I know.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
I can see Soriano possibly agreeing to a restructure of the remainder of his contract (i.e. spreading out the total payout) which would help the Cubs out budget-wise but I don’t see any reason why he would agree to take less total money.
I agree that Z will be traded or released. I think there is a possibility some team might agree to take on a (small) percentage of his salary in a trade.
cwolfQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]You’re trying to moralize an issue that’s already overmoralized. There’s not a single shred of evidence for the view you’re proffering. It’s beyond speculation and bordering on fabulism.[/quote]
Seriously? I’m not moralizing anything. I’m offering reasonable speculation to the list of reasons this move was made. If you can’t see that then you need to get your head out of your ass.
ZappBranniganQuote Reply
I gotta say the first two years of Soriano were pretty fun… Remember that Atlanta game I want to say in 2008 where he murderd the ball his first three at bats…
I will never accuse him of not trying or being out of shape. His legs just failed him.. That sucks
bubblesdachimpQuote Reply
[quote name=ZappBrannigan]Furthermore, Selig obviously only gave one reason for not wanting them to wear the hats (not wanting to break policy), but that hardly means that is the only reason. For all the talk on here about all the closed door politics and discussion in baseball that the fans never know about it, treating that speculation (that is firmly grounded, I might add) with scorn because Selig didn’t outright list it as a reason isn’t very intellectually honest in my opinion.[/quote]I keep hoping you have a point. I keep being disappointed.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=ZappBrannigan]Seriously? I’m not moralizing anything. I’m offering reasonable speculation to the list of reasons this move was made. If you can’t see that then you need to get your head out of your ass.[/quote]You need to stop watching Zeitgesit and read a fucking book.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
Yeah Bubbles, I liked Soriano from when he was a Yankee and I really am not enjoying watching his body continue to fail.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=cwolf]I can see Soriano possibly agreeing to a restructure of the remainder of his contract (i.e. spreading out the total payout) which would help the Cubs out budget-wise but I don’t see any reason why he would agree to take less total money.
I agree that Z will be traded or released. I think there is a possibility some team might agree to take on a (small) percentage of his salary in a trade.[/quote]
I think Z is harder to move than Soriano.. Declining skills. Fucking nutbag.. Even for one year why would you want that around your club?
bubblesdachimpQuote Reply
[quote name=bubblesdachimp]I gotta say the first two years of Soriano were pretty fun… Remember that Atlanta game I want to say in 2008 where he murderd the ball his first three at bats…
I will never accuse him of not trying or being out of shape. His legs just failed him.. That sucks[/quote]Yeah, it’s really sad to think about how fun he was to watch before his legs fell to pieces. I always knew deep down that deal would end up bad, but I didn’t know just how bad.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
When did Soriano originally get hurt? 2007? It’s incredible that he was so healthy before that and then it just all went to hell.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=bubblesdachimp]I think Z is harder to move than Soriano.. Declining skills. Fucking nutbag.. Even for one year why would you want that around your club?[/quote]I think it would be mainly since Z only has one more year left on his contract so it’s way less money.
cwolfQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]You need to stop watching Zeitgesit and read a fucking book.[/quote]
I keep hoping you won’t be a reactionary prick who hides behind his vocabulary but I’m always going to be disappointed. So go fuck yourself.
ZappBranniganQuote Reply
[quote name=bubblesdachimp]I think Z is harder to move than Soriano.. Declining skills. Fucking nutbag.. Even for one year why would you want that around your club?[/quote]It depends on your coaching staff, I think. If you’ve got a guy like Dave Duncan or Don Cooper who has a record of success with guys with declining skills and/or temper issues, maybe you think you can sign Z on the cheap and get some value from him. But it will take a very special set of circumstances I think for a team to take a flyer on him because of his behavior, especially some of the team-bashing stuff from the last two seasons.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Rice Cube]When did Soriano originally get hurt? 2007? It’s incredible that he was so healthy before that and then it just all went to hell.[/quote]Yeah, First his quad, then his calves, then his knees…fucking awful when you think about it.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]Yeah, it’s really sad to think about how fun he was to watch before his legs fell to pieces. I always knew deep down that deal would end up bad, but I didn’t know just how bad.[/quote]
Yea me too. I didnt think it would look so brutal by 2009.. In 2009 I was already knowing it was like the hindenburg
[quote name=Rice Cube]When did Soriano originally get hurt? 2007? It’s incredible that he was so healthy before that and then it just all went to hell.[/quote]
It was 2007.. I want to say Glavine was on the mound in july for the mets on sunday night
[quote name=cwolf]I think it would be mainly since Z only has one more year left on his contract so it’s way less money.[/quote]
I respect that though i think soriano might be tradeable to an AL team if you eat a shit ton. I think there is a 20% chance you can save a penny on Soriano. 0% chance on Z
bubblesdachimpQuote Reply
Tim Wakefield —> 200 wins (maybe)
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=ZappBrannigan]I keep hoping you won’t be a reactionary prick who hides behind his vocabulary but I’m always going to be disappointed. So go fuck yourself.[/quote]Zietgeist is a conspiracy theory movie, chief. No hiding here.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
I think Soriano actually killed his legs doing what fans usually accuse him of not doing…hustling on the bases. Irony.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=bubblesdachimp]I respect that though i think soriano might be tradeable to an AL team if you eat a shit ton. I think there is a 20% chance you can save a penny on Soriano. 0% chance on Z[/quote]Yeah, with only a year left on that deal, no one is eating it but the Cubs.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]Zietgeist is a conspiracy theory movie, chief. No hiding here.[/quote]
If you think that’s some type of conspiracy theory, then that’s your prerogative. You’re still an unbelievable hypocrite. A condescending, self-absorbed one at that. So fuck off.
ZappBranniganQuote Reply
[quote name=bubblesdachimp]I respect that though i think soriano might be tradeable to an AL team if you eat a shit ton. I think there is a 20% chance you can save a penny on Soriano. 0% chance on Z[/quote]I agree that some AL team might take Soriano on and pay some of his salary. I also wouldn’t be shocked to see somebody take a shot with Z. In either case, you are right that the Cubs will pay the vast majority of the contracts.
cwolfQuote Reply
This was just about hats…
(dying laughing)
(dying laughing)
(dying laughing)
Holy shit dudes…(dying laughing)
Rice CubeQuote Reply
I mean we all kinda agreed that the Z extension was a good idea in 2007 right???
I mean he was a nutjob but he was our nutjob..
bubblesdachimpQuote Reply
[quote name=Rice Cube]This was just about hats…
(dying laughing)
(dying laughing)
(dying laughing)
Holy shit dudes…(dying laughing)[/quote]
It’s not about hats. It’s about 9-11 and MLB policy. And MO’s egoism clouding his ability to entertain ideas that don’t fit his views perfectly.
ZappBranniganQuote Reply
[quote name=bubblesdachimp]I mean we all kinda agreed that the Z extension was a good idea in 2007 right???
I mean he was a nutjob but he was our nutjob..[/quote]
In retrospect it wasn’t a good deal, but if you looked at it at the time I think everyone figured he got a below-market deal. I never really saw him as a nutjob, I liked the guy and thought he was a good pitcher. Too bad he’s declined.
The Astros are killing the Phillies.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
No matter Selig’s motive for disallowing the hats, this is a dick move. He then followed this up by making Torre (former NY manager) do interviews and damage control. Disallowing the hats was stupid, in my opinion, and raging about the info leaking out is even dumber. I have no reason whatsoever to believe, based on the observed behavior of Selig, that he has enough nuanced thought to believe it would hurt his brand to associate with NYPD. It also should be noted that he also disallowed FDNY hats. One might even argue that aligning with these orgs would actually create good will in regard to the events that occurred on 9/11. I’m sorry but everything I’ve ever heard of Selig doing and his reactions after the Mets leaked this to the media, leave me to believe that he acted in a way that only served to market MLB ‘product’ (the commemorative hat) as opposed to respecting the wishes of players in the NY market wanting to pay homage to the local victims and survivors of 9/11.
melissaQuote Reply
[quote name=ZappBrannigan]If you think that’s some type of conspiracy theory, then that’s your prerogative. You’re still an unbelievable hypocrite. A condescending, self-absorbed one at that. So fuck off.[/quote]Dude, you’re trying to say the commisioner of baseball harbors some sort of animus towards the NYPD over their (admittedly and historically undeniable) history of brutality, such that he refused to let the Mets pay tribute to any public service agency in NYC. That’s tinfoil hat shit, man. If that makes me condescending and self-absorbed, so be it. I’ll wear that, becasue the truth is, I’m kind of an asshole. Actually, not kind of. I am a Royal Crown asshole. But you’re talking crazy talk and my being an asshole really has nothing to do with you spouting wildass speculation based on the fact (again, a historically undeniable fact) that the NYPD has a history of violence.
I’m simply saying that history and what Selig did are unconnected. They’re simply correlative facts. Nothing more, nothing less.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Rice Cube]I think the right move is probably to release both guys if you can’t trade them, but walking away from that much guaranteed $$ is just mind-boggling to me (dying laughing)[/quote]
In theory, Tom should be well versed in the concept of a sunk cost, seeing as he has run his own company before and attended Northwestern where I’m sure he at least studied the concept when he wasn’t in the bleachers.
GMs might not be able to own the concept because usually they are the ones who made the deal and can’t rationalize trying to get something out of the money spent, no matter how unlikely. In this case, Tom should theoretically understand the concept, and neither he nor the new GM will be tied emotionally to either of the contracts since they weren’t part of the decision to spend the money in the first place.
I bet Tom considers it dead money and looks at the roster spot as the only value involved. The question is whether the Cubs can eat that much cash and then spend more on top of it to fill the roster spot, and still do the things they want to do with development and such. I don’t think they have the cash flow to do it all.
Aisle424Quote Reply
[quote name=bubblesdachimp]I mean we all kinda agreed that the Z extension was a good idea in 2007 right???
I mean he was a nutjob but he was our nutjob..[/quote]I think there were a few people around that speculated it wasn’t a great deal, but I certainly had no problem with it. (dying laughing)
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Rice Cube]In retrospect it wasn’t a good deal, but if you looked at it at the time I think everyone figured he got a below-market deal. I never really saw him as a nutjob, I liked the guy and thought he was a good pitcher. Too bad he’s declined.
The Astros are killing the Phillies.[/quote]
Are you serious? Like a month before the deal he beat the fuck out of his catcher?
(dying laughing)
(dying laughing)
bubblesdachimpQuote Reply
[quote name=Rice Cube]This was just about hats…
(dying laughing)
(dying laughing)
(dying laughing)
Holy shit dudes…(dying laughing)[/quote]That really escalated quickly…I think Tad stabbed someone with a trident.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=bubblesdachimp]Are you serious? Like a month before the deal he beat the fuck out of his catcher?
(dying laughing)
(dying laughing)[/quote]
Yeah, but I thought the catcher deserved it (dying laughing)
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=ZappBrannigan]. And MO’s egoism clouding his ability to entertain ideas that don’t fit his views perfectly.[/quote]
It’s not like you are resorting to personal attacks and name-calling when others disagree with you. (dying laughing)melissaQuote Reply
[quote name=Rice Cube]Yeah, but I thought the catcher deserved it (dying laughing)[/quote]
I didnt.. Didnt Z get shelled that day? I called into ESPN 1000 and sufggested trading him for Fernando Martinez… Then i calmed down
bubblesdachimpQuote Reply
[quote name=Aisle424]In theory, Tom should be well versed in the concept of a sunk cost, seeing as he has run his own company before and attended Northwestern where I’m sure he at least studied the concept when he wasn’t in the bleachers.
GMs might not be able to own the concept because usually they are the ones who made the deal and can’t rationalize trying to get something out of the money spent, no matter how unlikely. In this case, Tom should theoretically understand the concept, and neither he nor the new GM will be tied emotionally to either of the contracts since they weren’t part of the decision to spend the money in the first place.
I bet Tom considers it dead money and looks at the roster spot as the only value involved. The question is whether the Cubs can eat that much cash and then spend more on top of it to fill the roster spot, and still do the things they want to do with development and such. I don’t think they have the cash flow to do it all.[/quote]
I think you’re right that Tom knows and the GM probably knows it’s a sunk cost. I’m talking about the hypothetical buyouts MO was suggesting, and how I just can’t see anyone (except Gil Meche) walking away from that much guaranteed money while they are still arguably productive, or at least if they think they are.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=bubblesdachimp]I didnt.. Didnt Z get shelled that day? I called into ESPN 1000 and sufggested trading him for Fernando Martinez… Then i calmed down[/quote]
(dying laughing), bubbles is gm’s alter ego.
GWQuote Reply
[quote name=bubblesdachimp]I didnt.. Didnt Z get shelled that day? I called into ESPN 1000 and sufggested trading him for Fernando Martinez… Then i calmed down[/quote]
I don’t remember anything but Barrett getting his ass kicked. But I’m admittedly a biased Z-lover.
Dempster gets through 7!
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]Dude, you’re trying to say the commisioner of baseball harbors some sort of animus towards the NYPD over their (admittedly and historically undeniable) history of brutality, such that he refused to let the Mets pay tribute to any public service agency in NYC. That’s tinfoil hat shit, man. If that makes me condescending and self-absorbed, so be it. I’ll wear that, becasue the truth is, I’m kind of an asshole. Actually, not kind of. I am a Royal Crown asshole. But you’re talking crazy talk and my being an asshole really has nothing to do with you spouting wildass speculation based on the fact (again, a historically undeniable fact) that the NYPD has a history of violence.
I’m simply saying that history and what Selig did are unconnected. They’re simply correlative facts. Nothing more, nothing less.[/quote]
I never implied there was any ill-will by Selig towards the NYPD. Perhaps your misplaced scorn is partially due to the fact you’re not even accurately able to paraphrase what I was suggesting.
If anything, Selig is aware of the history of the NYPD and thinks about PR. That’s it. It’s one reason he MIGHT not want players BREAKING POLICY to wear NYPD hats on the field even to honor 9-11.
Obviously the primary reason is not breaking policy. But I questioned why he didn’t allow policy to be broken even for the extremely emotional 9-11. One very possible reason is that he is painfully aware of what it looks like to have your players wearing the hats of a controversial organization on the field. If you think that’s ridiculous, then fine. I don’t.
I think that defaulting to “Bug Selig is an unemotional asshole” is intellectually lazy, and I think that’s what is happening around here.
*EDIT spelling
ZappBranniganQuote Reply
[quote name=melissa]
It’s not like you are resorting to personal attacks and name-calling when others disagree with you. (dying laughing)[/quote]I’m not Al Yellon. I could give a fuck about name calling. I couldn’t last on this site one day with cunt flying around every other word if I did.
ZappBranniganQuote Reply
BABIP hates the Cubs tonight.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=ZappBrannigan]I never implied there was any ill-will by Selig towards the NYPD. Perhaps your misplaced scorn is partially due to the fact you’re not even accurately able to paraphrase what I was suggesting.
If anything, Selig is aware of the history of the NYPD and thinks about PR. That’s it. It’s one reason he MIGHT not want players BREAKING POLICY to wear NYPD hats on the field even to honor 9-11.
Obviously the primary reason is not breaking policy. But I questioned why he didn’t allow policy to be broken even for the extremely emotional 9-11. One very possible reason is that he is painfully aware of what it looks like to have your players wearing the hats of a controversial organization on the field. If you think that’s ridiculous, then fine. I don’t.
I think that defaulting to “Bug Selig is an unemotional asshole” is intellectually lazy, and I think that’s what is happening around here.
*EDIT spelling[/quote]And he wasn’t aware of that history in 2001? If it didn’t matter then, why does it matter now? Or, maybe Selig is so crassly interested in MLB’s image that he ignored the history of violence in 2001 to save face in front an inflamed and angry populace, but then chose to care about it again in 2011 in front of an inflamed and sorrowful populace. You’re right, this is all quite plausible.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]And he wasn’t aware of that history in 2001? If it didn’t matter then, why does it matter now? Or, maybe Selig is so crassly interested in MLB’s image that he ignored the history of violence in 2001 to save face in front an inflamed and angry populace, but then chose to care about it again in 2011 in front of an inflamed and sorrowful populace. You’re right, this is all quite plausible.[/quote]
You don’t think it’s possible Selig caved to his policy right after arguably the top tragedy the nation ever faced happened, but then chose not to cave when the anger and emotion was somewhat subdued a DECADE later? You’re right, that’s completely implausible.
ZappBranniganQuote Reply
[quote name=ZappBrannigan]You don’t think it’s possible Selig caved to his policy right after arguably the top tragedy the nation ever faced happened, but then chose not to cave when the anger and emotion was somewhat subdued a DECADE later? You’re right, that’s completely implausible.[/quote]
It’s not implausible, but it’s a bit weird, to be honest.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
Let’s just say that Selig is aware of the history of the NYPD. If he is as keenly aware of PR as you are suggesting, wouldn’t he also know that nobody else gives a fuck about that on 9/11?
The number of people who would have applauded the decision would have dwarfed the few that may have brought up some bad history that might somehow tarnish the MLB brand in some obscure way. It just doesn’t seem like a likely scenario.
Aisle424Quote Reply
[quote name=ZappBrannigan]You don’t think it’s possible Selig caved to his policy right after arguably the top tragedy the nation ever faced happened, but then chose not to cave when the anger and emotion was somewhat subdued a DECADE later? You’re right, that’s completely implausible.[/quote]I think I haven’
t the first fucking clue what Bud Selig thinks. What I know is what MLB gave as the reason which functions perfectly on it’s own as an explanation. I don’t need to add anything to it. It stands on its own and while I understand it, I don’t agree with it. Period, paragraph.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Rice Cube]Tim Wakefield —> 200 wins (maybe)[/quote]And all his team needed to do is score 11 runs for him.
ACTQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]I think I haven’
t the first fucking clue what Bud Selig thinks. What I know is what MLB gave as the reason which functions perfectly on it’s own as an explanation. I don’t need to add anything to it. It stands on its own and while I understand it, I don’t agree with it. Period, paragraph.[/quote]
Fine. Fair enough. I’m sorry for attacking you.
ZappBranniganQuote Reply
[quote name=ACT]And all his team needed to do is score 11 runs for him.[/quote]
You can’t ever take this away from him.
Unless the bullpen shits the bed (dying laughing)
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=ZappBrannigan]The NYPD is an organization just like any other organization that might be printing hats. So yes, it does apply. I was merely pointing out a reason that he would be unwilling to compromise on NPYD hats (the controversial nature of the department) despite their relationship to 9-11.[/quote]I can understand that and if that’s why they did so then I wish they’d have stated it.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=Aisle424]Let’s just say that Selig is aware of the history of the NYPD. If he is as keenly aware of PR as you are suggesting, wouldn’t he also know that nobody else gives a fuck about that on 9/11?
The number of people who would have applauded the decision would have dwarfed the few that may have brought up some bad history that might somehow tarnish the MLB brand in some obscure way. It just doesn’t seem like a likely scenario.[/quote]Great point.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=ZappBrannigan]Fine. Fair enough. I’m sorry for attacking you.[/quote]It’s no big deal, At least we could hang with the discussion long enough to get things clear. Argument is a full-contact sport for me. (dying laughing)
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Berselius]MLB has a lot more egg on its face, but I’m kind of annoyed with the Mets for not giving Selig the finger. It’s not my money being put at risk though (dying laughing)[/quote]I agree with that. The Mets wanted to wear them, but not so much that they wouldn’t risk a relatively small fine considering their salaries.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=ZappBrannigan]Furthermore, Selig obviously only gave one reason for not wanting them to wear the hats (not wanting to break policy), but that hardly means that is the only reason. For all the talk on here about all the closed door politics and discussion in baseball that the fans never know about it, treating that speculation (that is firmly grounded, I might add) with scorn because Selig didn’t outright list it as a reason isn’t very intellectually honest in my opinion.[/quote]Another great point.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=mb21]I agree with that. The Mets wanted to wear them, but not so much that they wouldn’t risk a relatively small fine considering their salaries.[/quote]
Hey, hey, hold on there. Nobody never said nothin’ about some heavy-handed fines and shit.
/Torre’d
Aisle424Quote Reply
[quote name=mb21]I agree with that. The Mets wanted to wear them, but not so much that they wouldn’t risk a relatively small fine considering their salaries.[/quote]That’s a good point, too.
Player making millions: I want to wear a hat to honor people who died trying to save other people.
MLB: That will cost about 1% of your salary, maybe less.
Player making millions: Okay, you win, I won’t wear the hat.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
So, the Cubs lost, I guess.
binkyQuote Reply
[quote name=Chris Dickerson]So it wasn’t honor enough because they were on the road?
I get it, their wearing of tribute hats during a game within city limits is critical to the healing process and MLB has robbed them of their rights to express themselves. What is probably most unfortunate is that the Mets have ZERO other options to pay their respects.
The backlash here is just retarded. The Mets and everyone else need to quit whining.[/quote]Do you really think wearing the hats on the road would have the same impact in the city in which the major attack took place?
Anyway, I didn’t highlight this comment to discuss it, but just to say that other than this comment I loved the discussion on here about this topic.
Zapp made some great points that made me think about it. I’ve thought it was a stupid decision by MLB, but that’s mostly because if I was commissioner I wouldn’t care if the players wore KFC hats to honor fried chicken and its “benefits” to the health of millions of who eat it. (dying laughing)
I can at least understand now that there may have been other things involved that weren’t discussed and as we’ve talked about on here before, that’s important. Not sure why I ignored it at the time.
mb21Quote Reply
Wow, Pujols had 3 errors today.
ACTQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]That’s a good point, too.
Player making millions: I want to wear a hat to honor people who died trying to save other people.
MLB: That will cost about 1% of your salary, maybe less.
Player making millions: Okay, you win, I won’t wear the hat.[/quote]Yeah, exactly. If it was really that big a deal to the Mets players, they’d have worn them. I’m pretty sure the Yankees would have worn them and Jeter would have just paid all the fines to make himself look that much better. Jeter and ARod may have even fought over who pays it since they fight about everything else.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=ACT]Wow, Pujols had 3 errors today.[/quote]
He needs a tuneup.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=ACT]Wow, Pujols had 3 errors today.[/quote]obviously not having fun tonight.
mb21Quote Reply
Another oddity: Astros en route to win a series against the Phillies.
ACTQuote Reply
[quote name=Rice Cube]He needs a time out.[/quote]
Fixed
BerseliusQuote Reply
[quote name=mb21]Yeah, exactly. If it was really that big a deal to the Mets players, they’d have worn them. I’m pretty sure the Yankees would have worn them and Jeter would have just paid all the fines to make himself look that much better. Jeter and ARod may have even fought over who pays it since they fight about everything else.[/quote]Thus the source of my angry FB status last night. I’m sick of NFL guys acting like what they do is any way comparable or part of the same activity that servicemembers engage in. It’s like a slap in the face every time I hear one of those overpaid assholes call himself a warrior.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
Do the Cubs improve by signing Jose Reyes? I mean, they double down on short stops, but they pick up a really good leadoff guy. I don’t know. If they’re contending, it seems worth considering anyway.
binkyQuote Reply
[quote name=ACT]Wow, Pujols had 3 errors today.[/quote]Bobby Valentine recommends he be cavity-searched for sunflower seeds.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=josh]Do the Cubs improve by signing Jose Reyes? I mean, they double down on short stops, but they pick up a really good leadoff guy. I don’t know. If they’re contending, it seems worth considering anyway.[/quote]I think they do better by trying to upgrade at 1B and RF.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=josh]Do the Cubs improve by signing Jose Reyes?[/quote]Of course. The only way they wouldn’t be better is if Reyes is hurt.
ACTQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]Thus the source of my angry FB status last night. I’m sick of NFL guys acting like what they do is any way comparable or part of the same activity that servicemembers engage in. It’s like a slap in the face every time I hear one of those overpaid assholes call himself a warrior.[/quote]They help ensure an independent organization residing within a town centered in a well-populated area that probably partially paid for the privilege of having that team in their area is represented against an almost identical team from another urban area. If that’s not defending freedom, I don’t know what is.
binkyQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]I think they do better by trying to upgrade at 1B and RF and LF[/quote]
.
BerseliusQuote Reply
That was a really good article by Whittenmeyer
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=ACT]Of course. The only way they wouldn’t be better is if Reyes is hurt.[/quote]Agreed, but where would YOU play him and where do you think the CUBS would play him?
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=ACT]Of course. The only way they wouldn’t be better is if Reyes is hurt.[/quote]I guess I’m asking if Castro would suffer a performance loss, or something. How much would it affect the current team leader to be usurped by a free agent? Obviously, he hits well when healthy, but someone will have to learn a new position.
binkyQuote Reply
Fucking Hats
Can You Believe This Shit?
This Is About Motherfucking Hats
(dying laughing)
BerseliusQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]I think they do better by trying to upgrade at 1B and RF and 2B and LF and rotation and bullpen and defense and baserunning.[/quote](dying laughing)
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=mb21]Agreed, but where would YOU play him and where do you think the CUBS would play him?[/quote]What he said.
binkyQuote Reply
[quote name=mb21]That was a really good article by Whittenmeyer[/quote]It really was. That’s the best thing I’ve seen from a Cubs beat guy in years. Really solid work and it put some real perspective on Quade’s handling of Castro and Barney. Nicely done by Gordo.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
I have to figure out ways to add that tag from time to time. It’s just awesome.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=mb21](dying laughing)[/quote]Also, manager, pitching coach, and trainer.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=josh] How much would it affect the current team leader to be usurped by a free agent? [/quote]
I don’t think Ryan Dempster has to worry about Reyes taking his job. (dying laughing)
BerseliusQuote Reply
[quote name=ACT]Of course. The only way they wouldn’t be better is when Reyes is hurt.[/quote]
Yup.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
I believe MLB took the hats away, which is why the Mets didn’t wear them.
GBTSQuote Reply
[quote name=mb21]I have to figure out ways to add that tag from time to time. It’s just awesome.[/quote]Next time I post some angry, wrongheaded rant, feel free. (dying laughing)
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=mb21]Agreed, but where would YOU play him and where do you think the CUBS would play him?[/quote]
Honestly I’d put Reyes at shortstop until he breaks and Castro at 2B with Barney riding the bench.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=GBTS]I believe MLB took the hats away, which is why the Mets didn’t wear them.[/quote]That claim is apparently the source of some dispute. Some say the hats were confiscated, some say they were signed by the team and left on a table in the clubhouse. I think they were worn in BP, though.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=GBTS]I believe MLB took the hats away, which is why the Mets didn’t wear them.[/quote]They took them away? That’s priceless. They can take hats away from the players when they’re against the rules, but they can’t take steroids away. I love baseball.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=Rice Cube]Honestly I’d put Reyes at shortstop until he breaks and Castro at 2B with Barney riding the bench.[/quote]I’d probably put Castro in CF unless they want Brett Jackson there from day one. If Castro works out in CF you can always put Jackson in LF or RF. Castro has such a strong arm that I’d hate to lose it at 2nd base. I’d actually rather see him at 3rd than 2nd.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=mb21]They took them away? That’s priceless. They can take hats away from the players when they’re against the rules, but they can’t take steroids away. I love baseball.[/quote]Just like they can make a big fuss over hats, but are completely silent on the subject of the shoddy umpiring.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Rice Cube]Honestly I’d put Reyes at shortstop until he breaks and Castro at 2B with Barney riding the bench.[/quote]Truthfully, I don’t think the Cubs make a play at Reyes or 1B or RF (maybe RF). If they make a play at anyone, I’m expecting it to come with a 5 year plan attached. I think we’re in for a little status quo (Pena, LaHair, maybe a touch of Soirano) until the rebuild comes into full bloom. That’s my gut instinct. The market for what the Cubs need just doesn’t seem to be there this off season, with only half a GM to work with.
binkyQuote Reply
I really hope they took them away. That’s like a parent taking a toy away from a kid who has misbehaved. That’s just too good not to be true. I refuse to believe anything else. (dying laughing)
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=mb21]I’d probably put Castro in CF unless they want Brett Jackson there from day one. If Castro works out in CF you can always put Jackson in LF or RF. Castro has such a strong arm that I’d hate to lose it at 2nd base. I’d actually rather see him at 3rd than 2nd.[/quote]I was thinking 3rd too. He’s got the arm and good range. He doesn’t hit like a traditional 3B, but Gracie didn’t hit like a traditional 1B, but still was effective. If they can power up the outfield, they might not need a Ramirez-like bat at Third.
binkyQuote Reply
[quote name=mb21]That was a really good article by Whittenmeyer[/quote]It has a good explanation of why it has never bothered me that Quade treats Starlin differently from the vets. He is different from the vets.
ACTQuote Reply
[quote name=mb21] I’d actually rather see him at 3rd than 2nd.[/quote]
Or convert him to C. Or a LOOGY.
BerseliusQuote Reply
Is there any precedent for a SS making a (successful) transition to CF?
ACTQuote Reply
Bryan Cranston as Tim Whatley on Seinfeld really is surreal considering his career since.
Aisle424Quote Reply
[quote name=ACT]It has a good explanation of why it has never bothered me that Quade treats Starlin differently from the vets. He is different from the vets.[/quote]Did I miss the link to this article everyone is commending?
binkyQuote Reply
[quote name=Aisle424]Bryan Cranston as Tim Whatley on Seinfeld really is surreal considering his career since.[/quote]You’re a RAGING anti-Dentite!
binkyQuote Reply
[quote name=josh]Did I miss the link to this article everyone is commending?[/quote]It’s up a bit. It took me a while to find it. Here it is again: http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/cubs/7625833-573/cubs-starlin-castro-preparing-for-leader-role-as-vets-may-be-out-in-12.html
ACTQuote Reply
[quote name=josh]Did I miss the link to this article everyone is commending?[/quote]
Somewhere in the middle of MO and Zapp’s slapfight.
Aisle424Quote Reply
[quote name=ACT]Is there any precedent for a SS making a (successful) transition to CF?[/quote]
Robin Yount?
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=josh]You’re a RAGING anti-Dentite![/quote]
Tonight is the one where he makes his office Adults Only. The ending where Mel Torme serenades Kramer because he thinks he’s retarded is one of the funniest moments in TV history.
Aisle424Quote Reply
[quote name=Rice Cube]Robin Yount?[/quote]That was my first thought. I think there is a least considerable doubt that he was a good centerfielder, though (his TZ and FRAA numbers were lousy there). It also might help to find someone who converted closer to Starlin’s age.
ACTQuote Reply
I feel like you don’t need to convert Castro unless you get Troy Tulowitzki in a Rockies-GM-is-retarded trade (dying laughing)
Also, Verlander throws a lot of pitches.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
Red Sox are running up the scoreboard to celebrate Wake’s 200th victory.
ACTQuote Reply
[quote name=Aisle424]Somewhere in the middle of MO and Zapp’s slapfight.[/quote]
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=ACT]Red Sox are running up the scoreboard to celebrate Wake’s 200th victory.[/quote]I wonder if Quade has texted Francona about this egregious violation of the unwritten rules.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=ACT]That was my first thought. I think there is a least considerable doubt that he was a good centerfielder, though (his TZ and FRAA numbers were lousy there). It also might help to find someone who converted closer to Starlin’s age.[/quote]I’d almost rather see him shift his off-season to strength training and move to third. But that’s me.
I read that article on Castro. Lots of of good points. It’s crazy how blatant the pressure is on that kid, but that’s the game. It seems like a good lesson too that it’s not just fans who expect him to be a superstar.
binkyQuote Reply
[quote name=ACT]That was my first thought. I think there is a least considerable doubt that he was a good centerfielder, though (his TZ and FRAA numbers were lousy there). It also might help to find someone who converted closer to Starlin’s age.[/quote]BJ Upton
mb21Quote Reply
Upton was considered a well below average SS and at least according to TZ has become a very good CF.
mb21Quote Reply
He made the switch at age 22.
mb21Quote Reply
What skills do you need to play CF? Speed isn’t necessary, but it’s a bonus. It increases your range, which is more important in CF. You need to be able to read the ball off the bat. I’m guessing scouts can get a pretty good idea of how an infielder reads the ball and how it will translate into the OF.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=mb21]What skills do you need to play CF? Speed isn’t necessary, but it’s a bonus. It increases your range, which is more important in CF. You need to be able to read the ball off the bat. I’m guessing scouts can get a pretty good idea of how an infielder reads the ball and how it will translate into the OF.[/quote]Reed Johnson said last year once that center was the easiest OF position if you have speed, because the balls tend to be straighter, whereas they hook/slice in left and right.
binkyQuote Reply
I’ve seen a lot of pictures of Bud Selig today, and I’ve decided something: that man’s face looks like a penis wrinkle.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
Bryan LaHair was 12th among all AAA’ers in bWARP: http://www.baseballprospectus.com/sortable/index.php?cid=1049525
ACTQuote Reply
Tyler Colvin had 0.0 BWARP. i.e., he was replacement level at AAA. That sums up the kind of year he’s having even better than his MLB stats.
ACTQuote Reply
So LaHair. He’s 29, has had two big seasons at AAA, and was pretty ordinary before that. I can’t decide if he’s a late bloomer, or another Jashah Hoffoegerbois.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=ACT]It’s up a bit. It took me a while to find it. Here it is again: http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/cubs/7625833-573/cubs-starlin-castro-preparing-for-leader-role-as-vets-may-be-out-in-12.html%5B/quote%5D
It’s an interesting piece from a beat writer considering it’s mostly opinion and speculation as to why Castro has been handled the way he has by the manager. There were no quotes from Quade but suppositions as to why he has dealt with things the way he has. I took it from Ramirez’s remarks that he’d like to be the leader for the next few years and let Starlin take over in 3 or 4 years. (dying laughing)
melissaQuote Reply
(dying laughing) @ Cubs.com headline
“Bats can’t back gritty Dempster”
(dying laughing)
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=melissa]It’s an interesting piece from a beat writer considering it’s mostly opinion and speculation as to why Castro has been handled the way he has by the manager. There were no quotes from Quade but suppositions as to why he has dealt with things the way he has. I took it from Ramirez’s remarks that he’d like to be the leader for the next few years and let Starlin take over in 3 or 4 years. (dying laughing)[/quote]I suppose we should expect the beat guys to speculate a little bit. But Gordo at least he signposted his speculation and based it on quotes from other players and certain anecdotal evidence instead of pulling a Sullivan and masked speculation as fact in supplying his own facts in place of actual ones.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
So, “gritty” means “wild” now?
ACTQuote Reply
[quote name=Rice Cube](dying laughing) @ Cubs.com headline
“Bats can’t back gritty Dempster”
(dying laughing)[/quote]GRRRRRRR, GRINDY PLAYER IS GRINDY GGRRRRRRRR BLUE COLLAR
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=ACT]So, “gritty” means “white” now?[/quote].
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
Gritty old guy performance tonight, backed by 18 runs:
http://chicago.cubs.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=19180721
Rice CubeQuote Reply
In all seriousness, Dempster did keep it close without having his best stuff, but this gritty grindy crafty business is way out of hand. (dying laughing)
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
Demp also should have been taken out (for a pinch hitter) an inning earlier. With expanded rosters there’s even less reason to spare the bullpen.
ACTQuote Reply
3/4 of Sullivan’s postgame recap is devoted to ripping Zambrano. (dying laughing) What a one-note fuckshit of a douchebag.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=ACT]Demp also should have been taken out (for a pinch hitter) an inning earlier. With expanded rosters there’s even less reason to spare the bullpen.[/quote]
WE HAVE TO WIN GAMES HERE!!!!!!1111!!1!1!!donttrustthekids!11!1!!!1908!!!1!
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=ACT]Demp also should have been taken out (for a pinch hitter) an inning earlier. With expanded rosters there’s even less reason to spare the bullpen.[/quote]Quade said he did that out respect for Dempster. (dying laughing)
I really wish I were making that up.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]3/4 of Sullivan’s postgame recap is devoted to ripping Zambrano. (dying laughing) What a one-note fuckshit of a douchebag.[/quote]
Wut. How is Z relevant to this game?
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]Quade said he did that out respect for Dempster. (dying laughing)
I really wish I were making that up.[/quote]
Must not have felt like getting yelled at tonight.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]I suppose we should expect the beat guys to speculate a little bit. But Gordo at least he signposted his speculation and based it on quotes from other players and certain anecdotal evidence instead of pulling a Sullivan and masked speculation as fact in supplying his own facts in place of actual ones.[/quote]
I don’t disagree with you, it’s just a different type of piece from Wittenmyer and maybe a direction that he should pursue more often.
melissaQuote Reply
[quote name=Rice Cube]Wut. How is Z relevant to this game?[/quote]It’s the “one-month anniversary” of Z’s suspension, which gave Sully cause to celebrate.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=melissa]I don’t disagree with you, it’s just a different type of piece from Wittenmyer and maybe a direction that he should pursue more often.[/quote]Agreed.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]It’s the “one-month anniversary” of Z’s suspension, which gave Sully cause to celebrate.[/quote]
Jeez. Let the man serve his exile in peace.
/unpossible’d
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=Rice Cube]Jeez. Let the man serve his exile in peace.
/unpossible’d[/quote]Sullivan never misses a chance to dance on a grave.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]Sullivan never misses a chance to dance on a grave.[/quote]
At least he’ll leave a pot of gold behind for Z’s relatives.
BerseliusQuote Reply
That or a bowl of Lucky Charms
BerseliusQuote Reply
[quote name=Berselius]That or a bowl of Lucky Charms[/quote]
Is that what he calls his bowel movements?
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=Berselius]That or a bowl of Lucky Charms[/quote]Hobbits poop cereals?
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
Bobby Bonilla, Andruw Jones, and I think Manny Ramirez were all bought out of contracts FWIW. The Mets are still paying Bonilla 2M/yr, and will be until 2029 or something. They’ll end up paying him like 54M for 9M or some absurd shit like that.
Recalcitrant Blogger NateQuote Reply
[quote name=Recalcitrant Blogger Nate]Bobby Bonilla, Andruw Jones, and I think Manny Ramirez were all bought out of contracts FWIW. The Mets are still paying Bonilla 2M/yr, and will be until 2029 or something. They’ll end up paying him like 54M for 9M or some absurd shit like that.[/quote]The Mets are dumb. (dying laughing)
The Ramirez deal is interesting. I’d look closely at that for an idea of what the Cubs might try with Z and Soriano.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
I want 0 part of Jose reyes
bubblesdachimpQuote Reply
[quote name=bubblesdachimp]I want 0 part of Jose reyes[/quote]Sinner.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
So what does everyone think about the Mets not being able to wear NYPD hats?
Dr. Aneus TaintQuote Reply
http://northwestern.rivals.com/showmsg.asp?fid=57&tid=162755759&mid=162755759&sid=901&style=2
Dr. Aneus TaintQuote Reply
.
Dr. Aneus TaintQuote Reply
[quote name=mb21] major attack[/quote]
Dr. Aneus TaintQuote Reply
Dr. Aneus TaintQuote Reply
Dr. Aneus TaintQuote Reply
Dr. Aneus TaintQuote Reply
• Numerous Japanese teams have been scouting and are prepared to make offers to Cubs first baseman Bryan LaHair, reports Levine. LaHair is intrigued but hopes to remain in the Majors. The 28-year-old snagged Pacific Coast League MVP honors by hitting .331/.405/.664 with 38 home runs in 523 plate appearances, and he’s carried that success to the bigs in an eight-game stint. Former Cubs first baseman Micah Hoffpauir went the Japan route a year ago, but is hitting .245/.325/.429 for the Nippon Ham Fighters this year.
-MLBTR
binkyQuote Reply
I’d just like to say that Sons of Anarchy is little different than I saw at the end of season 2. There are so many holes in that story it’s difficult to watch.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=Dr. Aneus Taint]http://northwestern.rivals.com/showmsg.asp?fid=57&tid=162755759&mid=162755759&sid=901&style=2[/quote]It makes sense. If Texas likes more money then it’s the best option. If they prefer less money they can go elsewhere.
mb21Quote Reply
I’m still surprised by the Texas to the ACC rumors, It doesn’t feel like a great fit for either side, for reasons I can’t pin down at all (dying laughing). I’m probably just projecting UVA’s ability to look down its nose at everyone to the rest of the conference.
BerseliusQuote Reply
It makes no sense because of money.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=mb21]It makes no sense because of money.[/quote]
Could they keep the LHN as part of the ACC deal? At least with the ACC they get baseball a place to play.
BerseliusQuote Reply
MLBTR is considering the possibility of TLR managing the Cubs. I have to be honest, I don’t think I could stomach that. Also [College football].
binkyQuote Reply
ACC: Good academics, decent football, good baseball, good basketball, keep the LHN
Big 10: Good academics, good football, shit baseball, good basketball, lose the LHN
Dr. Aneus TaintQuote Reply
[quote name=josh]MLBTR is considering the possibility of TLR managing the Cubs. I have to be honest, I don’t think I could stomach that. Also [College football].[/quote]
I don’t think TLR —> Cubs will happen. He was a good manager for a while though but a bunch of that was good fortune as well, which I guess is true for most good managers. Having Canseco/McGwire and Pujols (among others) in their primes would make most managers look good anyway.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=Berselius]Could they keep the LHN as part of the ACC deal? At least with the ACC they get baseball a place to play.[/quote]If baseball is much of a consideration then why not go to the Pac? They have some very good baseball teams and would give them more money than the ACC would. I know I recently looked into the revenue sharing systems for each conference and while the Pac has significantly increased that, the ACC shared a greater percentage than any conference than the Big Ten. I’m guessing the Pac-12 follows the Big Ten now or they’re the same as the ACC so I don’t think they’re just going to keep the LHN in the ACC either.
The only way the LHN remains in its current form is if the Big 12 figures out how to exist for a few more years or they go independent. The SEC might allow it, but I’m guessing it would still require some changes with regards to revenue.
If Texas is insistent on keeping the LHN, what thery’re really doing is saying they won’t join another conference. In each conference, including the SEC even, more revenue is shared each time new contracts are signed. I think the Pac 12 basically copied the Big Ten’s system and the ACC may have done that as well.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=Dr. Aneus Taint]ACC: Good academics, decent football, good baseball, good basketball, keep the LHN
Big 10: Good academics, good football, shit baseball, good basketball, lose the LHN[/quote]What makes you think they could keep the LHN though? I know I saw Chip Brown or whoever it is said that, but I just don’t see it. I don’t see the ACC, Pac or Big Ten creating a system in which one school gets a much larger share of the tv money, bowl money or other various shared revenue sources. If the SWC and Big 12 has taught anybody anything it’s that doing that ensures the conference will split up.
I think that’s something that people are overlooking. I’m not blaming Texas as I don’t think they deserve any, but they’ve now been in 2 conferences that have died in the last 20 or so years. Almost every member in the Big 12 right now would say it’s about Texas making way more than anyone else in revenue that is typically shared. The Big 12 was destined to die the day it formed because of that. I’d be shocked if any current conference sets up a similar situation.
mb21Quote Reply
Keith Law —> hated Moneyball
http://meadowparty.com/blog/?p=1861
Rice CubeQuote Reply
Video quality low, but Keith Law reminds me of this Family Guy:
Rice CubeQuote Reply
Muskat posted the Cubs’ 2012 schedule:
http://muskat.mlblogs.com/2011/09/14/914-cubs-2012-schedule-2/
Place bets now for 2012 Cubs’ season record!
Rice CubeQuote Reply
Are the Marlins changing their name from Florida to Miami? When the hell was this decided?
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=mb21]Are the Marlins changing their name from Florida to Miami? When the hell was this decided?[/quote]Tomorrow.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
I didn’t know Melissa was Dutch: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14913053
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=mb21]Are the Marlins changing their name from Florida to Miami? When the hell was this decided?[/quote]
Four weeks ago
/Chicago media
BerseliusQuote Reply
[quote name=mb21]Are the Marlins changing their name from Florida to Miami? When the hell was this decided?[/quote]
Whenever they cheated the state out of zillions of dollars for a new stadium they can’t sell out anyway.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=mb21]Are the Marlins changing their name from Florida to Miami? When the hell was this decided?[/quote]I’m guessing because they’re building that Billion dollar facility in Miami. Sooo many people are going to be at their games now. They won’t be all the way out in the middle of nowhere (i.e., the suburbs) anymore!
binkyQuote Reply
http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/09/14/francisco-rodriguez-on-lack-of-save-chances-im-not-fine/
How can relievers accumulate value without getting saves? *conundrum*
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=josh]I’m guessing because they’re building that Billion dollar facility in Miami. Sooo many people are going to be at their games now. They won’t be all the way out in the middle of nowhere (i.e., the suburbs) anymore![/quote]
You think so? I thought the Marlins didn’t sell out because nobody down there cares about baseball, though I admit I know very little about Miami culture.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=Rice Cube]You think so? I thought the Marlins didn’t sell out because nobody down there cares about baseball, though I admit I know very little about Miami culture.[/quote]I don’t know, but whoever paid for it, it’s in Miami proper (or closer to it), so I just think they are trying to attract more fans with some local pride, or something.
binkyQuote Reply
[quote name=josh]I don’t know, but whoever paid for it, it’s in Miami proper (or closer to it), so I just think they are trying to attract more fans with some local pride, or something.[/quote]Will they still share with the Dolphins?
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=josh]I don’t know, but whoever paid for it, it’s in Miami proper (or closer to it), so I just think they are trying to attract more fans with some local pride, or something.[/quote]
I was in Miami twice this year and from an unknowledgeable POV, it does seem like this stadium is in a better location than the previous. It looks really nice on the outside, too.
MishQuote Reply
[quote name=Mish]I was in Miami twice this year and from an unknowledgeable POV, it does seem like this stadium is in a better location than the previous. It looks really nice on the outside, too.[/quote]I have no idea. The closest I’ve been in St. Pete, and that was pre-Rays. Just going by mapquest, the change doesn’t seem to be that huge, but there are always convenience factors that Google maps doesn’t identify. I hope it works out for them, considering how piss-poor their attendance is.
binkyQuote Reply
[quote name=josh]I don’t know, but whoever paid for it, it’s in Miami proper (or closer to it), so I just think they are trying to attract more fans with some local pride, or something.[/quote]
A better location could definitely help a bit, but I just find it difficult to imagine them going from 10K-ish fans per game to a packed house just because. Maybe they know something we don’t know.
I think this is supposed to be a baseball-only facility and the Dolphins stay in Pro Player/Sun Life/Insert Your Brand Here Stadium, right?
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=mb21]I’d just like to say that Sons of Anarchy is little different than I saw at the end of season 2. There are so many holes in that story it’s difficult to watch.[/quote]Yeah, it’s all over the place now. I’ll probably try and make it through this season, but all this season seems totally aimless. Jax is angry and wants to quit, but totally loves the club. Clay loves Jax and wants to kill Jax. Jax’ wife loves him but hates the club but is totally a part of the club now…it’s all just a bunch of contradictory bullshit. I think Sutter completely lost his way.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Rice Cube]A better location could definitely help a bit, but I just find it difficult to imagine them going from 10K-ish fans per game to a packed house just because. Maybe they know something we don’t know.
I think this is supposed to be a baseball-only facility and the Dolphins stay in Pro Player/Sun Life/Insert Your Brand Here Stadium, right?[/quote]That sucks for the ‘Fins. That stadium is terrible.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Rice Cube]A better location could definitely help a bit, but I just find it difficult to imagine them going from 10K-ish fans per game to a packed house just because. Maybe they know something we don’t know.
I think this is supposed to be a baseball-only facility and the Dolphins stay in Pro Player/Sun Life/Insert Your Brand Here Stadium, right?[/quote]They’ll probably get an initial draw of people who want to see the facilities. I bet they sell out the first couple of weeks. We’ll see after that.
binkyQuote Reply
http://florida.marlins.mlb.com/fla/ballpark/new_ballpark.jsp
The roof closes like a Tupperware lid (dying laughing)
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=Rice Cube]http://florida.marlins.mlb.com/fla/ballpark/new_ballpark.jsp
The roof closes like a Tupperware lid (dying laughing)[/quote]
Actually now that I look at it more the roof is like the sliding heated lid for a lot of most PCR machines.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
Tango thinks Cards got a discount on Carpenter: http://www.insidethebook.com/ee/index.php/site/article/chris_carpenter_money_on_the_table/
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
I actually think this could be cool until Aroldis Chapman or Stephen Strasburg uncorks a really wild pitch, or Rick Ankiel fires a laser right into it and causes an infield flood (dying laughing)
Rice CubeQuote Reply
Also, Tango highlights the new Negro Leagues database: http://www.insidethebook.com/ee/index.php/site/article/negro_league_database/
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
The sliding roof or retractable dome or whatever anyone wants to call them seem like such a waste. I’ve been to Miller Park when the roof is open and I still feel like I’m inside. The one in Arizona looks similar. So why bother having a retractable roof?
That seems like an awful lot of money and maintenance on a system put in place simply for people who insist that baseball is played outdoors. Just put them inside if the climate is too harsh to be outside during a baseball season.
It would be very interesting to know what sort of revenue change would occur if a team was exclusively under a dome vs. in a stadium where the roof is open 20-30 times a year. I bet it doesn’t change much.
Aisle424Quote Reply
[quote name=Aisle424]The sliding roof or retractable dome or whatever anyone wants to call them seem like such a waste. I’ve been to Miller Park when the roof is open and I still feel like I’m inside. The one in Arizona looks similar. So why bother having a retractable roof?
That seems like an awful lot of money and maintenance on a system put in place simply for people who insist that baseball is played outdoors. Just put them inside if the climate is too harsh to be outside during a baseball season.
It would be very interesting to know what sort of revenue change would occur if a team was exclusively under a dome vs. in a stadium where the roof is open 20-30 times a year. I bet it doesn’t change much.[/quote]Is there any difference in noise of open v. closed? I can’t stand inside venues for others sports because they just get too darn loud.
binkyQuote Reply
[quote name=Rice Cube]
I actually think this could be cool until Aroldis Chapman or Stephen Strasburg uncorks a really wild pitch, or Rick Ankiel fires a laser right into it and causes an infield flood (dying laughing)[/quote]At which point it becomes FUCKING AWESOME!
binkyQuote Reply
http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/cubs/7645317-573/walt-jocketty-as-cubs-gm-could-start-whirlwind-that-brings-pujols.html
DO NOT WANT
fang2415Quote Reply
[quote name=fang2415]http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/cubs/7645317-573/walt-jocketty-as-cubs-gm-could-start-whirlwind-that-brings-pujols.html
DO NOT WANT[/quote]Agreed x1,000,000
binkyQuote Reply
[quote name=fang2415]http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/cubs/7645317-573/walt-jocketty-as-cubs-gm-could-start-whirlwind-that-brings-pujols.html
DO NOT WANT[/quote]I wouldn’t mind Jocketty. I actually have a lot of respect for him as a GM, but no thanks on TLR.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=mb21]What makes you think they could keep the LHN though? I know I saw Chip Brown or whoever it is said that, but I just don’t see it. I don’t see the ACC, Pac or Big Ten creating a system in which one school gets a much larger share of the tv money, bowl money or other various shared revenue sources.[/quote]
I don’t know. Maybe the ACC looks at the LHN as an independent venture (Texas has offered to share revenue with schools that appear on the network). Maybe they look at Texas as a major boost in TV market that would increase the equal share of the conference TV contract.
If I’m Miami or Virginia, I’d be fine with Texas having their own network as long as I get paid if I’m on it and Texas only makes as much as I do from the conference.
Dr. Aneus TaintQuote Reply
.
Dr. Aneus TaintQuote Reply
[quote name=josh]Is there any difference in noise of open v. closed? I can’t stand inside venues for others sports because they just get too darn loud.[/quote]
My limited understanding of physics makes me think that an opened roof for that type of stadium would create weird wind patterns so that’s the only real difference I can think of in terms of actual gameplay, but I definitely agree about the noise.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=josh]Is there any difference in noise of open v. closed? I can’t stand inside venues for others sports because they just get too darn loud.[/quote]
It’s not that different for open stadiums. Try having a conversation with anyone more than 2-3 seats away.
BerseliusQuote Reply
[quote name=Dr. Aneus Taint].[/quote]
I think they can win at least 48.6 games.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
That whole article is like a nightmare. Jocketty wouldn’t be the worst GM, but would be a step waay down from Friedman/Epstein/Cashman. And then there’s the fact that I’d want to shoot myself every time I had to cheer for anything that TLR is involved in. Honestly, I think it’d take like 3 Pujolses to make 1 LaRussa worth it.
And then there’s this gem:
NNNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
Lucas’d
fang2415Quote Reply
[quote name=Berselius]It’s not that different for open stadiums. Try having a conversation with anyone more than 2-3 seats away.[/quote]
I think the difference is when the stadium truly gets LOUD. I’ve never personally been in a domed stadium for anything like that. The closest I’ve come is when the Cubs were on something like 13 game winning streak and they were coming from behind on the Brewers in the 9th. Sammy hit one down the right field line that just stayed in the park and was caught by Burnitz. The moment Sammy hit it was pretty fucking loud, but nothing more than I’ve experienced at Wrigley. The difference was that the noise at Miller Park was created by the visiting fans, so that was impressive.
Aisle424Quote Reply
Elias rankings….
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2011/09/elias-rankings-update-1.html
Aramis Ramirez is Type B, which isn’t that surprising.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
I’d rather they make Quade the GM than hire fucking Colletti.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Rice Cube]Elias rankings….
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2011/09/elias-rankings-update-1.html
Aramis Ramirez is Type B, which isn’t that surprising.[/quote]A.J. Pierzynski is type A?
Elias is strange
fang2415Quote Reply
Would you prefer Colletti over Alvin?
Aisle424Quote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]I’d rather they make Quade the GM than hire fucking Colletti.[/quote]I’d rather they re-hire Hendry
fang2415Quote Reply
[quote name=Aisle424]Would you prefer Colletti over Alvin?[/quote]Maybe.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Aisle424]Would you prefer Colletti over Alvin?[/quote]I’d take Colletti, but I think I’d actually rather have Alvin manage the team than LaRussa.
fang2415Quote Reply
[quote name=fang2415]A.J. Pierzynski is type A?
Elias is strange[/quote]I think that speaks more to the paucity of offensive talent at his position and service time group than anything else.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]I think that speaks more to the paucity of offensive talent at his position and service time group than anything else.[/quote]I guess. Soto’s a type A also, although with a lower score. I guess when you use crazy metrics like RBIs, you get crazy results…
fang2415Quote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]Yeah, it’s all over the place now. I’ll probably try and make it through this season, but all this season seems totally aimless. Jax is angry and wants to quit, but totally loves the club. Clay loves Jax and wants to kill Jax. Jax’ wife loves him but hates the club but is totally a part of the club now…it’s all just a bunch of contradictory bullshit. I think Sutter completely lost his way.[/quote]Jax is the biggest problem with the show right now. He wants out of the club, but wants to have money. Your wife is a doctor! He doesn’t want to go to prison again so he signs up for running drugs and he kills people. Then there’s the issue with the other members voting in favor of the drug running. Who the fuck would have done that a couple years ago? Maybe you could get Jax on Clay’s side, but you wouldn’t have gotten any other member in favor of it. Not one. No way.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=Aisle424]I think the difference is when the stadium truly gets LOUD. I’ve never personally been in a domed stadium for anything like that. The closest I’ve come is when the Cubs were on something like 13 game winning streak and they were coming from behind on the Brewers in the 9th. Sammy hit one down the right field line that just stayed in the park and was caught by Burnitz. The moment Sammy hit it was pretty fucking loud, but nothing more than I’ve experienced at Wrigley. The difference was that the noise at Miller Park was created by the visiting fans, so that was impressive.[/quote]
That’s still the oddest and most memorable stretch of Cubs baseball I’ve seen. The Cubs were something like 23-13 and in first place. They then lost 8 in a row, which was typical Cubs. They then won 12 in a row and Sammy very nearly made it 13. They were back to 33-21 (I think) and in first place.
mb21Quote Reply
21-13 I think. Not 23-13.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=fang2415]I guess. Soto’s a type A also, although with a lower score. I guess when you use crazy metrics like RBIs, you get crazy results…[/quote]
Here’s what is used:
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2007/10/stats-used-for.html
RBI appears to be only one of the factors. They also look at fielding percentage and assists which I assume includes caught-stealings.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=Rice Cube]Here’s what is used:
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2007/10/stats-used-for.html
RBI appears to be only one of the factors. They also look at fielding percentage and assists which I assume includes caught-stealings.[/quote]AJ is absolutely terrible at throwing out baserunners. (dying laughing) Elias is an odd system.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Rice Cube]Here’s what is used:
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2007/10/stats-used-for.html
RBI appears to be only one of the factors. They also look at fielding percentage and assists which I assume includes caught-stealings.[/quote]Yeah, I saw that. I’m assuming there’s a bunch of tirades on the web somewhere that explain really well how silly the ratings are, but I’m too lazy to bother actually understanding them. I’d rather just know in my heart that Pierzynski sucks anyway and leave it at that.
fang2415Quote Reply
[quote name=mb21]Jax is the biggest problem with the show right now. He wants out of the club, but wants to have money. Your wife is a doctor! He doesn’t want to go to prison again so he signs up for running drugs and he kills people. Then there’s the issue with the other members voting in favor of the drug running. Who the fuck would have done that a couple years ago? Maybe you could get Jax on Clay’s side, but you wouldn’t have gotten any other member in favor of it. Not one. No way.[/quote]The only thing that keeps me watching is the Hamlet angle and my hoping that Sutter finds his way back to it.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=fang2415]Yeah, I saw that. I’m assuming there’s a bunch of tirades on the web somewhere that explain really well how silly the ratings are, but I’m too lazy to bother actually understanding them. I’d rather just know in my heart that Pierzynski sucks anyway and leave it at that.[/quote]Yeah, he’s not good…but he’s still better than 95% of the players at his age and his position. (dying laughing)
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]I’d rather they make Quade the GM than hire fucking Colletti.[/quote]I am still (dying laughing) at this. I’m now half-hoping it happens, just to show that they fooled the Chicago press again.
fang2415Quote Reply
I think the thing that gets missed with Elias is that it’s not an indication in any way, shape, or form of TTL. It just speaks to that player’s skills relative to his peers.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]Yeah, he’s not good…but he’s still better than 95% of the players at his age and his position. (dying laughing)[/quote]You don’t get extra points for being old, do you? (dying laughing). If so, that would be quite funny.
fang2415Quote Reply
[quote name=fang2415]I am still (dying laughing) at this. I’m now half-hoping it happens, just to show that they fooled the Chicago press again.[/quote]I’m wondering if Ricketts has totally locked out the local press and a lot of these rumors aren’t their way of trying to spread enough BS to provoke a response. (dying laughing)
In all seriousness, though, I’m impressed with Ricketts’ ability to play his cards close to the vest so far.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=fang2415]You don’t get extra points for being old, do you? (dying laughing). If so, that would be quite funny.[/quote]Hahaha, no, but aren’t you measured against other players in your service time group? So it’s not like Soto and AJ are measured against each other?
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]I’m wondering if Ricketts has totally locked out the local press and a lot of these rumors aren’t their way of trying to spread enough BS to provoke a response. (dying laughing)
In all seriousness, though, I’m impressed with Ricketts’ ability to play his cards close to the vest so far.[/quote]
Poker face.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=Rice Cube]Poker face.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
Woah!
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/blog/big_league_stew/post/Video-Foul-tip-causes-sparks-to-literally-fly-f?urn=mlb-wp19467
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]I think the thing that gets missed with Elias is that it’s not an indication in any way, shape, or form of TTL. It just speaks to that player’s skills relative to his peers.[/quote]Or of the player’s ability to have others get on base in front of him relative to his peers, the ability to have a manager dumb enough to play him more than his peers even though he sucks, etc.
But even then I’m surprised that a guy like Pierzynski, .283/.324/.397 with 6 HR and 41 RBI makes the top tier. But I guess other catchers really do suck (dying laughing)
fang2415Quote Reply
[quote name=fang2415]Or of the player’s ability to have others get on base in front of him relative to his peers, the ability to have a manager dumb enough to play him more than his peers even though he sucks, etc.
But even then I’m surprised that a guy like Pierzynski, .283/.324/.397 with 6 HR and 41 RBI makes the top tier. But I guess other catchers really do suck (dying laughing)[/quote]Right. When you look at how capricious the Elias system is, you wonder why MLB teams have submitted to its use for so long. Perhaps as FOs become more metric-savvy, an anti-Elias/Elias reform movement will begin?
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]Hahaha, no, but aren’t you measured against other players in your service time group? So it’s not like Soto and AJ are measured against each other?[/quote]Wouldn’t that be the same thing though? Then guys like Vizquel and Moyer would get type A just for showing up. Although it could be that they have one category for everybody 8 years and up or something?
Still, it is a weird measurement to have hard-wired into the system. I can see how guys like Friedman have a ball arbitraging the mismatch between reality and stuff like Elias.
fang2415Quote Reply
[quote name=fang2415]Wouldn’t that be the same thing though? Then guys like Vizquel and Moyer would get type A just for showing up. Although it could be that they have one category for everybody 8 years and up or something?
Still, it is a weird measurement to have hard-wired into the system. I can see how guys like Friedman have a ball arbitraging the mismatch between reality and stuff like Elias.[/quote]Yeah, you’re right. Wouldn’t make sense.
It is really odd when you look at it. I wouldn’t be surprised to see it changed in the next 5-10 years.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Rice Cube]Woah!
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/blog/big_league_stew/post/Video-Foul-tip-causes-sparks-to-literally-fly-f?urn=mlb-wp19467%5B/quote%5DThat's an amazing video surrounded by about 30 of the worst puns I expect to read this year.
fang2415Quote Reply
[quote name=fang2415]That’s an amazing video surrounded by about 30 of the worst puns I expect to read this year.[/quote]It certainly sparked my interest.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]I think the thing that gets missed with Elias is that it’s not an indication in any way, shape, or form of TTL. It just speaks to that player’s skills relative to his peers.[/quote]I’m not exactly sure what the discussion is about so tell me to fuck off if need be, but the Elias grading system is agreed to by both the players and owners and is part of the CBA. If there are flaws (and there are (dying laughing)) I wouldn’t blame Elias.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=fang2415]That’s an amazing video surrounded by about 30 of the worst puns I expect to read this year.[/quote]In fact, it fired me up.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]In fact, it fired me up.[/quote]I watched it several times so I’m burned out.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=mb21]I’m not exactly sure what the discussion is about so tell me to fuck off if need be, but the Elias grading system is agreed to by both the players and owners and is part of the CBA. If there are flaws (and there are (dying laughing)) I wouldn’t blame Elias.[/quote]No, no, no, I’m not blaming Elias, I’m saying 2 things:
1.) People who get up in arms about a player who is not so good being graded highly just don’t understand Elias.
2.) It’s odd to me that the owners would agree to a system that stands to cost them draft picks on the basis of counting stats.
I don’t have a problem with Elias. They’re just doing the job they’ve been asked to do.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=mb21]I watched it several times so I’m burned out.[/quote]You need to light a fire under your ass.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]No, no, no, I’m not blaming Elias, I’m saying 2 things:
1.) People who get up in arms about a player who is not so good being graded highly just don’t understand Elias.
2.) It’s odd to me that the owners would agree to a system that stands to cost them draft picks on the basis of counting stats.
I don’t have a problem with Elias. They’re just doing the job they’ve been asked to do.[/quote]Should have just told me to fuck off. (dying laughing)
mb21Quote Reply
I wonder if it all evens out. You give up a top draft pick for someone like Moyer (making names up), but give up less for someone like Aramis Ramirez.
Also, those guys like Moyer would be more likely to accept arbitration since they’d probably get more money. So the guys who reach free agency (typically) are undervalued by Elias.
Make sense?
mb21Quote Reply
It does seem to me that if the Elias system was meant to map to actual baseball value in some meaningful way, it doesn’t do a very good job. At the moment, it’s just an arbitrary line in the sand for GMs to dance around, and the only criteria it needs to meet is that everybody knows where the line is drawn whether it’s in the right place or not.
[quote name=mb21]I watched it several times so I’m burned out.[/quote]Well done you guys for making the bad puns in the article a lower percentage of my yearly intake (dying laughing)
fang2415Quote Reply
[quote name=mb21]Should have just told me to fuck off. (dying laughing)[/quote](dying laughing). Do we get a do-over?
We all agree with each other anyway. Elias is stupid, but it exists.
fang2415Quote Reply
[quote name=mb21]I wonder if it all evens out. You give up a top draft pick for someone like Moyer (making names up), but give up less for someone like Aramis Ramirez.
Also, those guys like Moyer would be more likely to accept arbitration since they’d probably get more money. So the guys who reach free agency (typically) are undervalued by Elias.
Make sense?[/quote]
Hmmmmm…I suppose. It still seems like the system could be easily reformed and more exact with the metrics most teams now have available to them. I mean it’s obvious from the player’s side why Elias is okay. When the White Sox sit down and tell AJ that his OBP is abysmal and he has a better chance of winning the lotto than he does of throwing out a prospective basestealer, he can always whip out Elias and say he’s still in in the top 5% at his position & therefore, etc. But it strikes me as odd that the owners would acquiesce to such a system, even if it does kind of even out in the way you’re suggesting.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
But why would the Sox offer someone like AJ arbitration? I’m not sure what his salary is, but let’s say it’s $5 million. If they offer arbitration he’ll get more than that. Would AJ get more than that on the free agent market? I think he’d have a hard time finding a job.
However, let’s say Ramirez is a type B free agent and we have a pretty good reason to believe he won’t stick around (more money, whatever). The Cubs offer arbitration, he declines, signs with a different team and they don’t give up as much to get the better player (Ramirez over AJ).
I can see it as a benefit to both, but I think it would benefit the owners to keep guys like Ramirez as a type B free agent. Most teams aren’t going to waste 1 of their 3 type A signings on a guy like AJ. With Ramirez you can sign him and still sign 3 type A guys.
I don’t know. I’m just thinking out loud.
mb21Quote Reply
I just realized the Cubs can’t lose 100 games. Well done, Qu.
Aisle424Quote Reply
Moyer as type A? What? I don’t think there are any age considerations in Elias – the “peers” thing is just by position. IIRC even pre-FA guys are included in the rankings.
BerseliusQuote Reply
GM’s prediction of 95 losses is still in play, however.
Aisle424Quote Reply
[quote name=Aisle424]I just realized the Cubs can’t lose 100 games. Well done, Qu.[/quote]
BerseliusQuote Reply
[quote name=Berselius]Moyer as type A? What? I don’t think there are any age considerations in Elias – the “peers” thing is just by position. IIRC even pre-FA guys are included in the rankings.[/quote]Moyer isn’t even playing, right?
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=Aisle424]GM’s prediction of 95 losses is still in play, however.[/quote]I think 95 was about as bad as PECOTA thought the Cubs could be. They achieved it.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=mb21]Moyer isn’t even playing, right?[/quote]
I think he’s injured, but not retired (dying laughing). Just reacting to some comment above implying Vizquel or Moyer getting auto type A status for showing up
BerseliusQuote Reply
[quote name=Berselius]Moyer as type A? What? I don’t think there are any age considerations in Elias – the “peers” thing is just by position. IIRC even pre-FA guys are included in the rankings.[/quote]Yeah, I thought there was a service time component, but I was wrong.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Berselius]
[/quote]Fixed.
GBTSQuote Reply
[quote name=Berselius]Moyer as type A? What? I don’t think there are any age considerations in Elias – the “peers” thing is just by position. IIRC even pre-FA guys are included in the rankings.[/quote]Yeah, we’re just making shit up, really.
I don’t really care whether the FA rankings bear little relation to reality, really. But if they really want them to provide fair compensation for loss of value and all that, they will need to change it.
Far more important is figuring out which team can I root for next year if the Cubs hire Colletti, Jocketty and/or La Russa.
fang2415Quote Reply
[quote name=fang2415]
Far more important is figuring out which team can I root for next year if the Cubs hire Colletti, Jocketty and/or La Russa.[/quote]
Far more important is how I’m going to rationalize still rooting for the Cubs when they hire all three of those guys (dying laughing).
BerseliusQuote Reply
[quote name=Berselius]Far more important is how I’m going to rationalize still rooting for the Cubs when they hire all three of those guys (dying laughing).[/quote]I might be able to do it if they keep Zambrano, in the hopes that he will eventually punch one of them in the mouth.
fang2415Quote Reply
[quote name=Berselius]Far more important is how I’m going to rationalize still rooting for the Cubs when they hire all three of those guys (dying laughing).[/quote]Just pretend the Yankees are wearing Cubs uniforms. That we can be pissed off in 10 years when the Yankees aren’t allowed to wear different hats.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=Berselius]I think he’s injured, but not retired (dying laughing). Just reacting to some comment above implying Vizquel or Moyer getting auto type A status for showing up[/quote]He’s a free agent, rehabbing from TJ surgery. His aim is to play winter ball and get a spring training invite from some club. Don’t be surprised if the Cubs try him out as a fifth starter at some point next year.
ACTQuote Reply
I looked into old starters a while back, and I think Moyer would be the oldest member of a regular rotation if some club decides to use him. I honestly hope that happens, though his future is very much in doubt, obviously.
ACTQuote Reply
[quote name=ACT]He’s a free agent, rehabbing from TJ surgery. His aim is to play winter ball and get a spring training invite from some club. Don’t be surprised if the Cubs try him out as a fifth starter at some point next year.[/quote]Nah, he’d need at least two years of bullpen duty first. So, rotation in 2014, then. He’ll only be 51! (dying laughing)
fang2415Quote Reply
[quote name=ACT]I looked into old starters a while back, and I think Moyer would be the oldest member of a regular rotation if some club decides to use him. I honestly hope that happens, though his future is very much in doubt, obviously.[/quote]
Satchel Paige pitched until he was a billion years old, though I guess not that regularly.
BerseliusQuote Reply
[quote name=fang2415]Nah, he’d need at least two years of bullpen duty first. So, rotation in 2014, then. He’ll only be 51! (dying laughing)[/quote]
They can convert him to SS and move Castro to 1b
BerseliusQuote Reply
Urlacher —> Possibly out Sunday.
It’s a good thing the Bears have that one extra linebacker.
GBTSQuote Reply
I’m glad you guys derived such joy from that sparky-catcher’s-mask article (dying laughing)
Rice CubeQuote Reply
Satch had one 3-inning outing when he was 58 as a publicity stunt. Moyer wouldn’t be the oldest pitcher, but I think he’d be the oldest to get regular rotation duties.
ACTQuote Reply
He started a lot less in MLB than I thought (and for fewer seasons). Another victim of segreation.
He was an all-star at the ages of 45 and 46. Wow.
BerseliusQuote Reply
They should reactivate Rickey Henderson or Julio Franco so Jamie Moyer can pitch to them.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_oldest_Major_League_Baseball_players
Looks like Niekro was the oldest starting pitcher, so Jaime Moyer would be the oldest if he somehow lands a rotation job.
ACTQuote Reply
[quote name=ACT]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_oldest_Major_League_Baseball_players
Looks like Niekro was the oldest starting pitcher, so Jaime Moyer would be the oldest if he somehow lands a rotation job.[/quote]
Wow, I had forgotten how much older Clemens and RJ were when they hung em up.
BerseliusQuote Reply
[quote name=Berselius]Wow, I had forgotten how much older Clemens and RJ were when they hung em up.[/quote]
Randy Johnson’s perfect game was really cool.
So was his home run.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
It’s fascinating that there are some really soft-throwers on that list (Niekro, Hough, Moyer), but some extremely hard-throwers as well (Clemens, Ryan, Johnson).
ACTQuote Reply
[quote name=ACT]It’s fascinating that there are some really soft-throwers on that list (Niekro, Hough, Moyer), but some extremely hard-throwers as well (Clemens, Ryan, Johnson).[/quote]
There’s more than one way to be really good at baseball.
😉
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=Berselius]Satchel Paige pitched until he was a billion years old, though I guess not that regularly.[/quote]Didn’t he only make one appearance or something?
mb21Quote Reply
So Mariano Rivera is two saves away from having the record all to himself. How does someone who pitches so few innings relative to other pitchers amass so much WAR? 3.1 rWAR and 2.2 fWAR in 57 IP so far. Does leverage index inflate his value somehow?
Rice CubeQuote Reply
There are now only 20 active players that are older than me. 21 if you want to count Moyer as someone who could still maybe play next year. But Manny Ramirez is also technically included, so we might as well just call it 20.
No wonder I’m such a curmudgeon.
Aisle424Quote Reply
Yes, RC. Leverage is very important for relievers. A closer is typically around 1.8 to 2.0 so take their WAR and multiply it by that number. If a reliever is 1 WAR and has a 2.0 leverage, he’s worth 2 WAR.
That makes what Sean Marshall has done the last 2 seasons very impressive. Not sure what his leverage is though.
mb21Quote Reply
I think it’s interesting because Trevor Hoffman has around the same number of saves but doesn’t have nearly as much WAR as Rivera, which would suggest that Hoffman saves were “easy” whereas Rivera saves were “difficult” or something like that.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=fang2415]I guess. Soto’s a type A also, although with a lower score. I guess when you use crazy metrics like RBIs, you get crazy results…[/quote]Everyone knows you use R+RBI’s. Doy.
binkyQuote Reply
Via Mental Floss:
Aisle424Quote Reply
[quote name=Rice Cube]I think it’s interesting because Trevor Hoffman has around the same number of saves but doesn’t have nearly as much WAR as Rivera, which would suggest that Hoffman saves were “easy” whereas Rivera saves were “difficult” or something like that.[/quote]Mariano also spent his entire career in the more superior league. The replacement level relative to average is different for each league. It’s about 2.5 wins below average in the AL and 2.0 in the NL.
mb21Quote Reply
One wonders if Rivera could have been an effective starter just throwing that cutter, similar to the knuckleballers only throwing that one annoying pitch. I guess he didn’t have the stamina though, and if players saw his cutter more than one plate appearance they might figure it out.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
http://chicago.cubs.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20110825&content_id=23757706&vkey=news_chc&c_id=chc
I don’t know if “Altruistic” is the right word. You could argue from a genetic perspective he’s actually being selfish. If he’d raised awareness for an extremely rare, but little known disease that no one he knew was afflicted by but that he decided was criminally underfunded, just for the shit of because he wanted to help some people, then I’d break out “altruistic.”
binkyQuote Reply
58%? May as well be 100% because that’s just fucked up.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=josh]http://chicago.cubs.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20110825&content_id=23757706&vkey=news_chc&c_id=chc
I don’t know if “Altruistic” is the right word. You could argue from a genetic perspective he’s actually being selfish. If he’d raised awareness for an extremely rare, but little known disease that no one he knew was afflicted by but that he decided was criminally underfunded, just for the shit of because he wanted to help some people, then I’d break out “altruistic.”[/quote]
I had to take a moral philosophy course at Berkeley (breadth requirements, bah) and learned that according to some philosophers (probably Kant but I forgot (dying laughing)) humans are never truly altruistic because there is always some desire to benefit from whatever it is they do.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=josh]http://chicago.cubs.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20110825&content_id=23757706&vkey=news_chc&c_id=chc
I don’t know if “Altruistic” is the right word. You could argue from a genetic perspective he’s actually being selfish. If he’d raised awareness for an extremely rare, but little known disease that no one he knew was afflicted by but that he decided was criminally underfunded, just for the shit of because he wanted to help some people, then I’d break out “altruistic.”[/quote]There was a good discussion on this on The Book Blog. I was very surprised to see that Tango believed true altruism existed. Even the guy you mentioned would feel good about himself.
mb21Quote Reply
Brian Urlacher’s mom ——-> died unexpectedly on Monday
Aisle424Quote Reply
[quote name=Rice Cube]I had to take a moral philosophy course at Berkeley (breadth requirements, bah) and learned that according to some philosophers (probably Kant but I forgot (dying laughing)) humans are never truly altruistic because there is always some desire to benefit from whatever it is they do.[/quote]Yes, exactly.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=Aisle424]Brian Urlacher’s mom ——-> died unexpectedly on Monday[/quote]
Condolences *sad face*
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=Aisle424]Brian Urlacher’s mom ——-> died unexpectedly on Monday[/quote]
That’s terrible. Thoughts to Urlacher and his family.
BerseliusQuote Reply
[quote name=Rice Cube]I had to take a moral philosophy course at Berkeley (breadth requirements, bah) and learned that according to some philosophers (probably Kant but I forgot (dying laughing)) humans are never truly altruistic because there is always some desire to benefit from whatever it is they do.[/quote]A lot of people take that from Kant, but that’s not really his point. Kant argues that altruism has no moral worth, because it is done for some reason other than duty, i.e. it is not an autonomous act, but is rather a heteronomous, and only those actions done autonomously, i.e. for the sake of the moral law at work within me, have moral worth. So altruism is nether morally blameworthy nor morally praiseworthy, because it is not an self-legislated moral act arising from the moral law, but it is done for some other reason, i.e. wishing another not to suffer, etc. Kantian morality is certainly problematic, but not because he thinks altruism is bad. He has a very high opinion of altruisitic acts, in fact. It’s simply that altruism is just a nice thing done for others that has no moral worth. Not good, not bad, just nice. So it’s not that altruism is impossible (that would be a silly thing to say) it’s just that altruistic actions have no moral worth.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Rice Cube]I had to take a moral philosophy course at Berkeley (breadth requirements, bah) and learned that according to some philosophers (probably Kant but I forgot (dying laughing)) humans are never truly altruistic because there is always some desire to benefit from whatever it is they do.[/quote]Depends on how you define “altruism.” Roberto Clemente was going to help people he had no relation to because he felt it was the right thing to do. Yeah, there are benefits (such as feeling good), but those benefits could be programmed into your brain by your DNA. From a strictly genetic perspective, being altruistic would mean you sacrifice something for a group you have no direct genetic investment in. But yeah, you could argue then that all life is connected historically. So I would define it as sacrificing (not necessarily just your life) even though no immediate family member stands to gain. In that respect, altruism does exist.
binkyQuote Reply
[quote name=Aisle424]Brian Urlacher’s mom ——-> died unexpectedly on Monday[/quote]That’s awful.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=josh]Depends on how you define “altruism.” Roberto Clemente was going to help people he had no relation to because he felt it was the right thing to do. Yeah, there are benefits (such as feeling good), but those benefits could be programmed into your brain by your DNA. From a strictly genetic perspective, being altruistic would mean you sacrifice something for a group you have no direct genetic investment in. But yeah, you could argue then that all life is connected historically. So I would define it as sacrificing (not necessarily just your life) even though no immediate family member stands to gain. In that respect, altruism does exist.[/quote]Right, and Kant certainly accepts that there are sefless acts, it’s just that the source of those selfless acts is not the moral law, it’s inclination and desire, so while these acts are sefless and admirable, they are not free and therefore have no moral worth.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
I get what you were saying about Dempster though, I think he’d have set up his charity for something else if his daughter didn’t have the 22q disorder, just like Ron Santo probably doesn’t champion JDRF and diabetes if he weren’t a diabetic himself. It’s still an honorable act regardless and I bet it made them feel good, but there’s a bit of selfish intent there (that you can’t really blame them for).
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]Right, and Kant certainly accepts that there are sefless acts, it’s just that the source of those selfless acts is not the moral law, it’s inclination and desire, so while these acts are sefless and admirable, they are not free and therefore have no moral worth.[/quote]
I got a B in that class. I wish I had paid more attention.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]A lot of people take that from Kant, but that’s not really his point. Kant argues that altruism has no moral worth, because it is done for some reason other than duty, i.e. it is not an autonomous act, but is rather a heteronomous, and only those actions done autonomously, i.e. for the sake of the moral law at work within me, have moral worth. So altruism is nether morally blameworthy nor morally praiseworthy, because it is not an self-legislated moral act arising from the moral law, but it is done for some other reason, i.e. wishing another not to suffer, etc. Kantian morality is certainly problematic, but not because he thinks altruism is bad. He has a very high opinion of altruisitic acts, in fact. It’s simply that altruism is just a nice thing done for others that has no moral worth. Not good, not bad, just nice. So it’s not that altruism is impossible (that would be a silly thing to say) it’s just that altruistic actions have no moral worth.[/quote]That makes sense.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=Rice Cube]I got a B in that class. I wish I had paid more attention.[/quote]Who was the prof?
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]Who was the prof?[/quote]
I think he was a visiting prof so he wasn’t in the Berkeley faculty list and unless I dig out my transcript, I wouldn’t be able to tell you (dying laughing)
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=Rice Cube]I get what you were saying about Dempster though, I think he’d have set up his charity for something else if his daughter didn’t have the 22q disorder, just like Ron Santo probably doesn’t champion JDRF and diabetes if he weren’t a diabetic himself. It’s still an honorable act regardless and I bet it made them feel good, but there’s a bit of selfish intent there (that you can’t really blame them for).[/quote]Just as I’ll have uncle dave send a few bucks to an epilepsy charity when I win the bet. About two-thirds of the money I donate goes to similar charities. Call it an honorable act or whatever you want, but there’s definitely some selfishness there too. If I didn’t have epilepsy it’s highly unlikely I’d donate much or any money to epilepsy and almost certainly wouldn’t donate as much as I do.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=Rice Cube]I get what you were saying about Dempster though, I think he’d have set up his charity for something else if his daughter didn’t have the 22q disorder, just like Ron Santo probably doesn’t champion JDRF and diabetes if he weren’t a diabetic himself. It’s still an honorable act regardless and I bet it made them feel good, but there’s a bit of selfish intent there (that you can’t really blame them for).[/quote]No, I don’t blame him, but nor would I call him altruistic. He’s helped people incidentally by helping his daughter. That’s good. I can’t imagine how else he would act in that situation — except maybe just denial or never saying anything. He could have not tried to help his daughter or kept it private. Although if I understand the descriptions I’ve read correctly, there really isn’t any help. It sounds like a fundamental genetic error, like Down Syndrome. You can’t rewrite someone’s genetic code, not without some crazy advanced in technology.
binkyQuote Reply
I send my extra money to Penis Ensmallment research charities
Cyril FiggisQuote Reply
[quote name=Rice Cube]I think he was a visiting prof so he wasn’t in the Berkeley faculty list and unless I dig out my transcript, I wouldn’t be able to tell you (dying laughing)[/quote]Ah, no worries. The Philosophy faculty there is quite good. Searle and Nöe are favorites of mine.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=josh]No, I don’t blame him, but nor would I call him altruistic. He’s helped people incidentally by helping his daughter. That’s good. I can’t imagine how else he would act in that situation — except maybe just denial or never saying anything. He could have not tried to help his daughter or kept it private. Although if I understand the descriptions I’ve read correctly, there really isn’t any help. It sounds like a fundamental genetic error, like Down Syndrome. You can’t rewrite someone’s genetic code, not without some crazy advanced in technology.[/quote]
It’s unfortunate, but there isn’t much that can be done when a chunk of chromosome is missing. Sounds like most of the “treatments” are just to make sure the bodily functions are managed.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]Ah, no worries. The Philosophy faculty there is quite good. Searle and Nöe are favorites of mine.[/quote]
I worked in the bookstore and when stocking the philosophy textbooks it was kind of amusing when you got to Searle’s classes and his portrait is plastered all over the covers of his books.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=Rice Cube]I worked in the bookstore and when stocking the philosophy textbooks it was kind of amusing when you got to Searle’s classes and his portrait is plastered all over the covers of his books.[/quote]My main source of philosophical knowledge comes from fights with a friend who did his PhD in philo at U Iowa. We ended up constantly and bitterly annoyed at each other. I guess my mind just doesn’t work that way or something.
binkyQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]Ah, no worries. The Philosophy faculty there is quite good. Searle and Nöe are favorites of mine.[/quote]
If the Cal Philosophy department is anything like the also-well-regarded UW Computer Science department, there’s no chance in hell those guys are teaching a survey course anyway.
BerseliusQuote Reply
[quote name=josh]My main source of philosophical knowledge comes from fights with a friend who did his PhD in philo at U Iowa. We ended up constantly and bitterly annoyed at each other. I guess my mind just doesn’t work that way or something.[/quote]
You should’ve told him to fuck off.
Which you probably did.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=Berselius]If the Cal Philosophy department is anything like the also-well-regarded UW Computer Science department, there’s no chance in hell those guys are teaching a survey course anyway.[/quote]
The course I took was this one:
http://philosophy.berkeley.edu/courses/detail/539
Might have changed some in the past 13 years or so.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=Rice Cube]You should’ve told him to fuck off.
Which you probably did.[/quote]I defriended him on Facebook. That’s the modern equivalent to saying “fuck off” right?
binkyQuote Reply
New bullshit post up: http://obstructedview.net/articles/general/mike-quades-star-wars-nicknames.html
Aisle424Quote Reply
[quote name=mb21]Yes, RC. Leverage is very important for relievers. A closer is typically around 1.8 to 2.0 so take their WAR and multiply it by that number. If a reliever is 1 WAR and has a 2.0 leverage, he’s worth 2 WAR.
That makes what Sean Marshall has done the last 2 seasons very impressive. Not sure what his leverage is though.[/quote]Wat? Leverage isn’t included in WAR, at least not in fWAR. It all comes from context-neutral stats (for pitchers, FIP).
From http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/pitcher-win-values-explained-part-seven :
If you’re talking about WPA, of course, then the leverage of each situation in which you appear matters. But for WAR, a strikeout is a strikeout whether it comes in the first with none on or in the ninth with the bases loaded. Which is why relievers so rarely have high WARs, and why Rivera (and Marshall for that matter) is even more impressive.
fang2415Quote Reply