I feel like the debate regarding whether or not to trade Carlos Zambrano has been ongoing for as long as his career has. In reality it began after the 2006 season. So much of his career as a starter has seen fans and media members argue in one way or another that Zambrano should be or shouldn’t be traded. I’ve listed my arguments many times why he should not and why I thought it was just plain silly. I can’t say that anymore. I’m not for or against him being traded, but it’s clear that Carlos Zambrano’s projected value next season isn’t so high that teams will just put up with his shit. There are several examples of players with similar projected value who were released or traded for little or nothing. So it should come as no surprise if or when the Cubs do.
The debate itself is old and I’ve spent entirely too much time on it. Prior to 2010 Zambrano’s value was high enough that the Cubs put up with the baggage. When 2010 rolled around they stopped doing that. He was longer so valuable that they could let him do whatever they wanted. When Sammy Sosa‘s value sunk to that level, the Cubs shipped him to Baltimore and were happy to pay almost all of his 2005 salary. When Barry Bonds was at that level, the Giants opted to not re-sign him and no other team felt the baggage he carried was worth it either. In 2007 the Cubs traded Michael Barratt in response to the Zambrano/Barrett fight in the dugout and later the clubhouse. In 2010 they suspended Zambrano for another dugout scene. This isn’t new. Teams have been doing this for a long time.
Teams need a way to control the behavior of the players and the one way they use to do just that is to get rid of problem players who aren’t all that valuable. If you’re a 3 WAR player, teams put up with it. So whether or not the Cubs get better or worse trading Zambrano just isn’t something I’m intersted in anymore. I was interested in it for more years than I should have been required to argue why the Cubs shouldn’t get rid of him. It turned out that the Cubs were also willing to put up with whatever garbage he brings to the clubhouse because he was so good. They knew how valuable he was while the fans and media didn’t understand it. That’s good enough for me.
Shipping out clubhouse problems isn’t anything new. It’s not something that’s going to change dramatically with the new front office. It’s just a part of baseball. If some player is causing problems in the clubhouse and he’s not worth a certain amount in wins, he’s gone. All teams do this. It’s what the Cubs have done and it’s what they’ll do in the future. We may look at a player and say he’s worth 2 WAR and shouldn’t be traded for nothing, but it’s going to happen. It more than likely happens this offseason.
If you’re read Moneyball, seen the movie or paid attention to transactions after the 2001 season, you know the Oakland A’s traded first base prospect Carlos Pena early in the 2002 season so that Art Howe would play Scott Hatteberg. Pena was the 5th rated prospect in all of baseball entering the 2002 season. Hatteberg was a 32 year old catcher moved to 1st base coming off a -1.4 rWAR season in Boston. He was worth -.1 the year before and .5 in 1999. The 3 seasons prior to signing with the A’s, Hatteberg had been worth -1 WAR. He was 32 years old and coming off of injury in 2002. Billy Beane, known as a great general manager, traded the 5th ranked prospect in all of baesball, would later add as a player to be named later Jeremy Bonderman (ranked 20th overall entering 2003) to aquire Ted Lilly and a couple other marginal players. They did this so they could play a guy who had been worth -1 WAR over the previous 3 seasons, was 32, and was playing a different position. It must be said, this has to be one of the dumbest trades in the entire history of Major League Baseball.
One of the best GM’s in the game made it. Mistakes happen. Bad signings occur. They make bad trades. This is as much a part of basebal as a routine error at 2nd base. Anybody thinking that the new front office is going to make nothing but great decisions just doesn’t understand. Maybe the first less than ideal decision the new front office makes is trading Zambrano for pretty much nothing. I expect that will happen and I won’t argue it was a bad decision either, but I think the Cubs can actually get something in return. I don’t think they have to just throw the asset away. By the way, I’m pleased to see that the new front office speaks about players as assets. That’s what they are.
Considering the likelihood that Z will be traded, it’s worth trying to figure out what the Cubs could expect to get in return. We came up with about 2 WAR using an average of the three projections available. I’m comfortable ignoring his hitting for two reasons: 1) AL teams may be interested at which point that value is irrelevant and 2) in so few plate appearances the variance of his value with the bat is too huge to consider it valuable in projecting value in my opinion. This doesn’t mean it should be ignored. It shouldn’t be. He typically adds value with the bat, but in less than 70 plate appearances I’m not comfortable factoring it in.
We’ll use $4.8 million as the win value for 2012. This makes Zambrano worth $9.6 million next year. He’s owed $18 million. If the Cubs were to just trade Zambrano and get absolutely nothing in return a fair trade would be Zambrano plus $8.4 million. The Cubs could then use their $9.6 million in savings and add back the two wins they traded away.
Zambrano comes with enough problems that it’s unlikely any team would be willing to pay $9.6 million for Zambrano. We can’t be sure what they’d be willing to pay for, but I’m going to guess that no team will want to pay more than $4.8 million (1 win). I’m also guessing that gets the Cubs a decent prospect in return. It won’t be a top prospect, but I could see a B-/C+ prospect in return for Zambrano and $13.2 million.
That prospect might be worth somewhere between $2 million and $4 million. We’ll use $3 million. So the Cubs trade away Zambrano plus $13.2 million and save $4.8 million. They also get $3 million a prospect. That’s a total value in return of $7.8 million, which is just under the $8.4 million we had if it was a fair trade. The Cubs have $4.8 million in savings to buy back a win they lost and young talent to add to the minor leagues.
This seems more than fair to me. The team trading for Zambrano gets 1 win for free if all works out while the Cubs clean up their clubhouse, save enough that they lose only 1 win at the MLB level and add depth in the minor leagues. If the Cubs could pull off this type of deal I’d be pretty happy. Even small market teams can afford the $4.8 million for Z next season.
Comments
Why was Beane so hellbent on Hatteberg? Pena has always had good OBP, hasn’t he?
I hope the superfriends at least get something fair for Z. I don’t know how much I buy that clubhouse stuff. Every baseball player I’ve ever met is pretty much insufferable.
binkyQuote Reply
Hatteberg was cheap. Pena didn’t work out for several years so the deal didn’t end up looking as bad, but at the time it was horrible. It’s a trade I’m sure Beane didn’t want to make, but he also wanted to show Howe who was in charge.
mb21Quote Reply
Heyman says the Cubs will do a second round of interviews.
mb21Quote Reply
Julie says Z’s people are at the Winter Meetings.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]Julie says Z’s people are at the Winter Meetings.[/quote]They’re in the wrong place then. (dying laughing)
mb21Quote Reply
The Winter Meetings take place in early December. These are the GM Meetings. People need to get their meetings straight. (dying laughing)
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=mb21]The Winter Meetings take place in early December. These are the GM Meetings. People need to get their meetings straight. (dying laughing)[/quote]I’ll not eat dinner tonight.
Whichever meeting it is, do agents of players under contract always go to these things, or is this possibly a prelude to a deal?
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=WaLi]Can anyone with chemical background explain why sulfuric acid solution has a freezing point that looks like this?
MuckerQuote Reply
Z had lunch with Theo at Goose Island, per George Altman.
They are really going above and beyond to rescind that No Dinner Policy.
RIP, No Dinner Meme.
Aisle424Quote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]I’ll not eat dinner tonight.
Whichever meeting it is, do agents of players under contract always go to these things, or is this possibly a prelude to a deal?[/quote]I think sometimes players and/or agents show up, but not usually.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=mb21]Hatteberg was cheap. Pena didn’t work out for several years so the deal didn’t end up looking as bad, but at the time it was horrible. It’s a trade I’m sure Beane didn’t want to make, but he also wanted to show Howe who was in charge.[/quote]I see. Hatteberg ended up having a decent year, didn’t he? Maybe every GM should make just a weird move once every couple years, throw some randomness into the mix. A little chaos.
binkyQuote Reply
I like how they know where they ate lunch. It’s as if they’re being stalked. What did they order? Did Theo drink an iced tea while Zambrano did shots? What on earth were they wearing? When they shook hands (did they?) did it look like they liked one another? What type of shoes were they wearing? And who the fuck paid? Big tippers?
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=josh]I see. Hatteberg ended up having a decent year, didn’t he? Maybe every GM should make just a weird move once every couple years, throw some randomness into the mix. A little chaos.[/quote]Hatteberg had a pretty good year. I think as bad as that trade was it had a meaning to it: Art, you aren’t in charge anymore so play the fucking guys I tell you to play.
I’d like to think that Beane didn’t care if it was a bad trade.
mb21Quote Reply
Hatteberg had one OK year followed by 2 poor ones.
ACTQuote Reply
Make that 3 poor ones.
ACTQuote Reply
[quote name=mb21]Hatteberg had a pretty good year. I think as bad as that trade was it had a meaning to it: Art, you aren’t in charge anymore so play the fucking guys I tell you to play.
I’d like to think that Beane didn’t care if it was a bad trade.[/quote]I think it would be all right for a team to take more of a comprehensive approach to the day-to-day, where the GM was more active in those decisions. I don’t know how it works behind the scenes, maybe that’s the case already. I’m sure it varies by org. It takes the right kind of manager/GM relationship, I would think. It would at least be good to see a manager who could hang with the GM/front office crew and learn some of that side in order to make informed decisions, and to see a GM with a more active interest in the team, on the other hand. At least in strategic planning, maybe confined just to that big picture stuff. You wouldn’t want to have too many cooks spoiling the pot and all that.
binkyQuote Reply
[quote name=mb21]I like how they know where they ate lunch. It’s as if they’re being stalked. What did they order? Did Theo drink an iced tea while Zambrano did shots? What on earth were they wearing? When they shook hands (did they?) did it look like they liked one another? What type of shoes were they wearing? And who the fuck paid? Big tippers?[/quote]
The Chicago media has been reduced to a poor man’s TMZ.
Aisle424Quote Reply
[quote name=ACT]Make that 3 poor ones.[/quote]His OBP shot way up after he went to the Reds. What’s that all about? They have a better steroid cocktail in Cincinnati or something?
binkyQuote Reply
[quote name=Aisle424]The Chicago media have reduced themselves to a poor man’s TMZ.[/quote]
Fixed for insipid muckraking.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=mb21]I like how they know where they ate lunch. It’s as if they’re being stalked. What did they order? Did Theo drink an iced tea while Zambrano did shots? What on earth were they wearing? When they shook hands (did they?) did it look like they liked one another? What type of shoes were they wearing? And who the fuck paid? Big tippers?[/quote]
One of the managerial candidates (Maddux I think) commented that Theo had good taste in restaurants. I don’t remember if the article said where they went, but so far we’ve seen that Theo has gone to Red Ivy, Goose Island and Fifty/50. He has a penchant for sports bars. Not particularly good sports bars, either.
WenningtonsGorillaCockQuote Reply
It’s time was so short.
I will eat dinner tonight in its memory.
BerseliusQuote Reply
[quote name=josh]His OBP shot way up after he went to the Reds. What’s that all about? They have a better steroid cocktail in Cincinnati or something?[/quote]
Weaker league, probably
BerseliusQuote Reply
Rodrigo’s Agent ———> we will not talk to the Cubs.
BerseliusQuote Reply
Nice, apparently Rodrigo’s agent also said that he and Ramirez were bothered by Brenly’s criticism, said it was low class. WIN.
BerseliusQuote Reply
[quote name=Berselius]Rodrigo’s Agent ———> we will not talk to the Cubs.[/quote]I’m so over him. Seriously, though, they can’t replace his entire value at that position, but they can find someone at another position and plug the hole he was defensively and at least break even.
binkyQuote Reply
[quote name=Berselius]Nice, apparently Rodrigo’s agent also said that he and Ramirez were bothered by Brenly’s criticism, said it was low class. WIN.[/quote]I’d almost prefer if, when asked, they responded “Who is Bob Brenly?”
binkyQuote Reply
[quote name=Berselius]Nice, apparently Rodrigo’s agent also said that he and Ramirez were bothered by Brenly’s criticism, said it was low class. WIN.[/quote]NICE. About time people started calling that moron on his bullshit.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]NICE. About time people started calling that moron on his bullshit.[/quote]I’d prefer they just have left it alone. Now Brenly is just going to be a complete asswipe next year about Ramirez.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=mb21]I’d prefer they just have left it alone. Now Brenly is just going to be a complete asswipe next year about Ramirez.[/quote]He’ll just claim the Superfriends didn’t want him anyway and that’s why the agent preemptively opted out. True or not, he’ll use that as fodder for more Rami bashing.
binkyQuote Reply
Z is in Chicago? I remember him saying he’d take a day trip to Miami between starts to meet Theo in person.
Theo meeting Z at all means Z wants to stay, and Theo will at least temporarily listen to him.
If Z wanted out, he wouldn’t be flying around between starts.
Suburban kid 22Quote Reply
[quote name=mb21]I’d prefer they just have left it alone. Now Brenly is just going to be a complete asswipe next year about Ramirez.[/quote]That will be a huge change from his normal behavior.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
wow, Lisfranc for Matt Schaub. Sucks for Houston.
BerseliusQuote Reply
I don’t think there’s any doubt that Zambrano wants to stay. he said as much already. I think Theo has been very diligent so I think the meeting is nothing more than gathering as much information as he can. Not sure what the result will be, but I don’t think it’s anything more than that.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=mb21]I’d prefer they just have left it alone. Now Brenly is just going to continue to /b]be a complete asswipe next year about [b]everyone[/quote]
.
BerseliusQuote Reply
[quote name=Berselius].[/quote]Exactly. Brenly’s m.o. is to be as critical as possible from the booth about certain players even as he unnecessarily lauds certain others. Hopefully the resounding “we don’t want your ignorant ass managing our team” message sent to him by the league this offseason will inspire him to stop doing that shit.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=WenningtonsGorillaCock]One of the managerial candidates (Maddux I think) commented that Theo had good taste in restaurants. I don’t remember if the article said where they went, but so far we’ve seen that Theo has gone to Red Ivy, Goose Island and Fifty/50. He has a penchant for sports bars. Not particularly good sports bars, either.[/quote]
Well, Goose and Red Ivy were for lunch near the park. When you consider what is around there, that’s about as good as it gets. Plus, half the places down there aren’t even open for lunch on weekdays. Goose used to be the only one a couple of years ago.
The 50/Fifty was with Tom & Todd, so it wouldn’t surprise me if the Ricketts boys picked that place.
Not that it matters, but I don’t think we can judge Theo’s foodie cred based on these examples.
Aisle424Quote Reply
Brenly can be an asshole, but he’s usually not. He said something about Ramirez he shouldn’t have said, but since Ramirez responded you know he’s going to add more. We’ll hear about certain things Ramirez did or did not do and so on and so forth. I understand Ramirez wanting to get a shot in. I probably would too, but he made the situation worse.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]Brenly’s m.o..[/quote]
I KNEW IT!
Suburban kid 22Quote Reply
Cardinals —> World Series Champs
GBTSQuote Reply
If Aramis’ parting shot at the Cubs is to criticize their dipshit color commentator, he has sunk to Kent Mercker territory.
Who gives a flying fuck what Brenly thought or said? If they think that impacted the team’s decision to re-sign or not re-sign him, then they are idiots and Ramirez should fire them immediately.
If that is the biggest problem Ramirez had with the Cubs in his years here, then he seriously has whacked out priorities. How about nobody ever getting on fucking base in front of him and coaches doing nothing about it? How about letting the few guys who did get on in front of him run themselves into outs on the basepaths before he has a chance to drive them in? How about pissing away his prime in 2005 and 2006 while putting all their eggs into the Wood/Prior basket?
No, what bothered him enough to make a comment was that Brenly was a bitch in the broadcast booth. You go now.
Aisle424Quote Reply
[quote name=Suburban kid 22]I KNEW IT
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=GBTS]Cardinals —> World Series Champs[/quote]Did Paul Sullivan just break that news?
mb21Quote Reply
I tend to agree with this too. At least Fuld and Theriot had parting shots about the way the team is run and not about an announcer. I don’t believe what Fuld or Theriot said. It’s not like there’s a single team in a baseball that doesn’t understand the value in getting on base. Some value it more than others, but what those guys said was silly.
mb21Quote Reply
So I was a funeral today and Sean Marshall was there, and nobody really had any idea why.
GBTSQuote Reply
[quote name=GBTS]Cardinals —> World Series Champs[/quote]Aw, shit.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Aisle424]If Aramis’ parting shot at the Cubs is to criticize their dipshit color commentator, he has sunk to Kent Mercker territory.
Who gives a flying fuck what Brenly thought or said? If they think that impacted the team’s decision to re-sign or not re-sign him, then they are idiots and Ramirez should fire them immediately.
If that is the biggest problem Ramirez had with the Cubs in his years here, then he seriously has whacked out priorities. How about nobody ever getting on fucking base in front of him and coaches doing nothing about it? How about letting the few guys who did get on in front of him run themselves into outs on the basepaths before he has a chance to drive them in? How about pissing away his prime in 2005 and 2006 while putting all their eggs into the Wood/Prior basket?
No, what bothered him enough to make a comment was that Brenly was a bitch in the broadcast booth. You go now.[/quote]To be fair, it was the agent who took the shot, and it’s easy to understand why: I’m trying to maximize my client’s value, and here’s this embittered old codger who can’t stop telling everyone with a television set that my client is selfish, lazy, and bad, all which flies in the face of the facts, in addition to affecting my pocketbook, as well as that of my client.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
Surely Rodrigo’s agent didn’t call a press conference to say that Aramis won’t talk to the Cubs because of Brenly.
I suspect some hack asked Rodrigo’s agent how they felt about it, because this is important shit, and he answered.
Suburban kid 22Quote Reply
[quote name=GBTS]So I was a funeral today and Sean Marshall was there, and nobody really had any idea why.[/quote]It was his funeral.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=GBTS]So I was a funeral today and Sean Marshall was there, and nobody really had any idea why.[/quote]Some might say he threw you guys a real curveball.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Suburban kid 22]Surely Rodrigo’s agent didn’t call a press conference to say that Aramis won’t talk to the Cubs because of Brenly.
I suspect some hack asked Rodrigo’s agent how they felt about it, because this is important shit, and he answered.[/quote]Did Sullivan report this? Because he has a history of asking provocative questions and then writing the answers up as if they were unsolicited statements.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]To be fair, it was the agent who took the shot, and it’s easy to understand why: I’m trying to maximize my client’s value, and here’s this embittered old codger who can’t stop telling everyone with a television set that my client is selfish, lazy, and bad, all which flies in the face of the facts, in addition to affecting my pocketbook, as well as that of my client.[/quote]A good agent wouldn’t need to publicly criticize someone who said that. They could look at the numbers I did to prove 1) he does hit when it matters and 2) for several years with the Cubs he played a hell of a lot more than the media and fans thought. Now they’re going to talk to a team and wonder what kind of bullshit the agent is going to say about their organization after Ramirez is traded or a free agent.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=Aisle424]Well, Goose and Red Ivy were for lunch near the park. When you consider what is around there, that’s about as good as it gets. Plus, half the places down there aren’t even open for lunch on weekdays. Goose used to be the only one a couple of years ago.
The 50/Fifty was with Tom & Todd, so it wouldn’t surprise me if the Ricketts boys picked that place.
Not that it matters, but I don’t think we can judge Theo’s foodie cred based on these examples.[/quote]
No, I totally agree. I just mentioned it b/c the hack journalists who feel the need to comment on where they’re eating don’t have to put much effort into guessing where they’ll be.
It often laments me how few decent options there are right around Wrigley. There’s just way more money in catering to drunk fans.
WenningtonsGorillaCockQuote Reply
[quote name=mb21]It was his funeral.[/quote]It was for a fallen Marine, a real nice gesture, it was just extremely random.
GBTSQuote Reply
I’m assuming Theo and Z had lunch in Milwaukee, right?
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=mb21]A good agent wouldn’t need to publicly criticize someone who said that. They could look at the numbers I did to prove 1) he does hit when it matters and 2) for several years with the Cubs he played a hell of a lot more than the media and fans thought. Now they’re going to talk to a team and wonder what kind of bullshit the agent is going to say about their organization after Ramirez is traded or a free agent.[/quote]Yeah, that’s probably true. I can see the rationale behind both. Technically, Brenly isn’t part of the Cubs org since the sale of the team. He works for WGN.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]Did Sullivan report this? Because he has a history of asking provocative questions and then writing the answers up as if they were unsolicited statements.[/quote]I don’t know. b is probably just making shit up.
Suburban kid 22Quote Reply
[quote name=mb21]I’m assuming Theo and Z had lunch in Milwaukee, right?[/quote]
They weren’t mentally prepared to go that far north
BerseliusQuote Reply
[quote name=Suburban kid 22]I don’t know. b is probably just making shit up.[/quote]
http://blogs.dailyherald.com/node/6478
BerseliusQuote Reply
[quote name=mb21]I’m assuming Theo and Z had lunch in Milwaukee, right?[/quote]I heard it was brunch, and it was at Mars Cheese Castle.
Suburban kid 22Quote Reply
Anyone got a link handy to the posts on Ramirez that show Brenly lied about him?
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Suburban kid 22]I heard it was brunch, and it was at Mars Cheese Castle.[/quote]Are we sure it wasn’t breakfast in bed? I heard they were having a sleepover last night.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=Berselius]http://blogs.dailyherald.com/node/6478[/quote]Ah, the Daily Herald paywall. The Maginot Line of marketing strategies.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Suburban kid 22]I heard it was brunch, and it was at Mars Cheese Castle.[/quote]So they dined on cheese curds and Leinenkugels.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]Ah, the Daily Herald paywall. The Maginot Line of marketing strategies.[/quote]
It worked fine for me. Here’s the text
.
BerseliusQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]Anyone got a link handy to the posts on Ramirez that show Brenly lied about him?[/quote]I don’t even remember what Brenly said. (dying laughing)
mb21Quote Reply
Called Ramirez a “numbers gatherer,” only hits when it doesn’t matter, & therefore, etc.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
Ramirez’s stats with the Cubs are pretty damn impressive. I doubt too many teams are going to shy away from him because he’s a “numbers gatherer.” They’ll just hope he gathers 30 home runs and 100 RBI.
mb21Quote Reply
http://obstructedview.net/chicago-cubs/articles/aramis-ramirez-and-performing-when-it-counts.html
mb21Quote Reply
In the first half of 2004 he hit .326/.374/.550. He then hit .308/.372/.613 in the 2nd half.
First half 2005: .298/.356/.549 and then .311/.362/.608.
First half 2006: .259/.320/.481 followed by .328/.388/.556.
First half 2007: .312/.356/.556 followed by .308/.375/.542.
First half 2008: .285/.386/.515 followed by .294/.371/.522.
He spent much of 2009 injured so it’s not like that it’s his fault.
First half 2010: .207/.268/.380 followed by .276/.321/.526.
First half 2011: .298/.346/.497 followed by .311/.374/.515.
Other than 2010 I don’t know how anybody could say that Ramirez wasn’t performing well in the 1st half. It’s either a lie or it’s ignorance
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=mb21]I don’t even remember what Brenly said. (dying laughing)[/quote]http://espn.go.com/blog/chicago/cubs/post/_/id/6711/brenly-wont-miss-numbers-gatherer-ramirez
ACTQuote Reply
What Brenly said is definitely “low class” but I think what Kinzler said is equally low. Neither comment was needed. I understand wanting to get a parting shot in, but I doubt those comments by Brenly will affect him at all. I’m guessing most teams had forgotten about them by now. They just remembered. Good job, Kinzler.
mb21Quote Reply
(dying laughing), @ MO getting lectured to by a former Trib Cubs beat writer on facebook
BerseliusQuote Reply
I think it’s also notable that Ramirez agent was specifically referring to Brenly getting nasty with Ramirez after Ramirez had left the team.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Berselius](dying laughing), @ MO getting lectured to by a former Trib Cubs beat writer on facebook[/quote]It’s like they all make them drink out of Mike Downey’s coffee cup over there to ensure the stupid is passed along.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
I’d add this: the fact that he was employed by the Cubs for so long is more than enough evidence any other team needs that Brenly is full of shit. Kinzler is just stupid.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=Berselius](dying laughing), @ MO getting lectured to by a former Trib Cubs beat writer on facebook[/quote]link?
mb21Quote Reply
I’M CLINGING TO STATS!!!!!!!!! CLIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIINIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIINNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG!
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=mb21]I’d add this: the fact that he was employed by the Cubs for so long is more than enough evidence any other team needs that Brenly is full of shit. Kinzler is just stupid.[/quote]Yeah, it’s probably a bad strategical move. I understand the impetus behind it, but, yeah, probably poorly calculated.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=mb21]link?[/quote]
https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=288779231156812&id=100000755672974
BerseliusQuote Reply
[quote name=Berselius]https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=288779231156812&id=100000755672974[/quote](dying laughing)
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=Berselius]https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=288779231156812&id=100000755672974[/quote]
Person A: Unsubstantiated assertion of the correctness of another unsubstantiated position.
Person B: Facts contradict that position.
Person A: I like this person’s baseless accusations better.
Person B: Here are the facts.
Person A: BLINDED BY SCIENCE
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
I’d respond there, but I apparently can’t. (dying laughing)
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=Berselius]https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=288779231156812&id=100000755672974[/quote]Geez.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=Berselius]https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=288779231156812&id=100000755672974[/quote](dying laughing)
Frank Thomas may be the best right-handed hitter in MLB history.
But yeah, Ventura was better. Ask anyone.
GBTSQuote Reply
I wish my work did not ban facebook so I could partake…
Snyds01Quote Reply
[quote name=GBTS](dying laughing)
Frank Thomas may be the best right-handed hitter in MLB history.
But yeah, Ventura was better. Ask anyone.[/quote]Across the triple slash line, Thomas is between .04 and .1 better than Ventura. It’s not even close. (dying laughing) Thomas is a surefire HOF, while Ventura will prob struggle to garner more than 25% of the vote.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]Across the triple slash line, Thomas is between .04 and .1 better than Ventura. It’s not even close. (dying laughing) Thomas is a surefire HOF, while Ventura will prob struggle to garner more than [b]2.5[b]% of the vote.[/quote]Fixed
BerseliusQuote Reply
Good lord. Who is this Solomon guy? Because he certainly has little wisdom if any.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]Across the triple slash line, Thomas is between .04 and .1 better than Ventura. It’s not even close. (dying laughing) Thomas is a surefire HOF, while Ventura will prob struggle to garner more than 2 or 288% of the vote.[/quote]
Fixed again
Aisle424Quote Reply
Ventura’s career OPS+ is the same as Aramis’ (dying laughing) (dying laughing) (dying laughing) (dying laughing)
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Berselius]Fixed[/quote]
I hope it’s not that low. Ventura deserves serious HOF consideration (Thomas should get in easily).
ACTQuote Reply
[quote name=mb21]I’d respond there, but I apparently can’t. (dying laughing)[/quote]Yeah, I wanted to add a (dying laughing) or nice snark.
Suburban kid 22Quote Reply
Guys, you are completely missing the point. Aramis Ramirez is a numbers gatherer. This is a fact. For example, he has a career .358 wOBA and has gathered 33.8 fWAR. Theriot has a career .315 wOBA and produced 9.8 fWAR. Don’t you guys know anything?
mb21Quote Reply
For what it’s worth, the bulk of Brenly’s criticism was of Aramis’ defense and baserunning, which Kinzer just ignored.
ACTQuote Reply
[quote name=ACT]I hope it’s not that low. Ventura deserves serious HOF consideration (Thomas should get in easily).[/quote]Eh. Ventura seems like a “short peak” guy to me. I mean his real brilliance in mid-90’s and while there are 2 or 3 big years after then, most of what follows his peak is pretty ordinary. Not bad, just not HOF stuff. Solid, solid baseball player, though. Undeniably among the best 3B of his era.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=ACT]For what it’s worth, the bulk of Brenly’s criticism was of Aramis’ defense and baserunning, which Kinzer just ignored.[/quote]And it’s still false. Aramis is slow, but he tries, especially on defense. Chalking up stuff like that to poor effort is just bad reasoning. You don’t get to where Ramirez is by dogging it. You have to bust your ass every day of your life. And Brenly knows that because he played in the majors, which makes his criticisms of players for being “lazy” ring all the more hollow to my ears.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
Both versions of WAR have Ventura slightly below Dawson. Not saying he should be in, but it wouldn’t be embarrassing to the hall if he made it. I’d be disappointed if he fell off the ballot after the first year.
ACTQuote Reply
Just point out that he separated his shoulder while diving for a ball.
BerseliusQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]And it’s still false. Aramis is slow, but he tries, especially on defense. Chalking up stuff like that to poor effort is just bad reasoning. You don’t get to where Ramirez is by dogging it. You have to bust your ass every day of your life. And Brenly knows that because he played in the majors, which makes his criticisms of players for being “lazy” ring all the more hollow to my ears.[/quote]He didn’t say anything about trying, just that it’s fallen off a cliff and not getting better.
ACTQuote Reply
[quote name=ACT]He didn’t say anything about trying, just that it’s fallen off a cliff and not getting better.[/quote]Well, players age, often ungracefully. Of all people, Bob Brenly should know that all too well.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=ACT]Both versions of WAR have Ventura slightly below Dawson. Not saying he should be in, but it wouldn’t be embarrassing to the hall if he made it. I’d be disappointed if he fell off the ballot after the first year.[/quote]Well, I didn’t think Dawson should have been in, so….
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
If you’re not familiar with it (I wasn’t, even though it was in a famous baseball movie), you should check out “I Idolize You” by Ike & Tina Turner.
http://youtu.be/iC2gOC6kFFk
Suburban kid 22Quote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]Well, I didn’t think Dawson should have been in, so….[/quote]He was so nice to play for the Cubs on the cheap. That’s worth an extra +10 niceWAR
BerseliusQuote Reply
[quote name=ACT]For what it’s worth, the bulk of Brenly’s criticism was of Aramis’ defense and baserunning, which Kinzer just ignored.[/quote]I don’t think anyone would argue that those criticisms aren’t warranted, but at the same time Brenly needs to shut the fuck up.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=mb21]I don’t think anyone would argue that those criticisms aren’t warranted, but at the same time Brenly needs to shut the fuck up.[/quote]Yep. Aramis is a bad baserunner and his defense is only getting worse as he ages. But none of that has anything to do with effort, nor is it the province of a fucking color analyst to continue to rip him after he’s left the team.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Berselius]He was so nice to play for the Cubs on the cheap. That’s worth an extra +10 niceWAR[/quote]I think Dawson was an incredible player, and if the awful turf in Montreal hadn’t wrecked his knees, maybe an all-time great. But as it stands, he was simply a very, very good player. But not, IMHO, a HOF player. But I have a very narrow sense of what a HOF player is. (dying laughing)
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
The guy who should be in is Raines. They should kick all the CF out until Raines gets in. (dying laughing)
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]I think Dawson was an incredible player, and if the awful turf in Montreal hadn’t wrecked his knees, maybe an all-time great. But as it stands, he was simply a very, very good player. But not, IMHO, a HOF player. But I have a very narrow sense of what a HOF player is. (dying laughing)[/quote]I always bumped up Dawson’s stats because of the era he played in, the stadium he played in, and how much his knees were shredded.
Aisle424Quote Reply
[quote name=Aisle424]I always bumped up Dawson’s stats because of the era he played in, the stadium he played in, and how much his knees were shredded.[/quote]I just can’t do that. The numbers are what they are. Hawk was a very good player, I loved him and I still covet a one of those sweet v-neck blue pullover jerseys with a number 8 on the back, but those aren’t HOF numbers to me.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
(dying laughing). KG spoof account https://twitter.com/#!/KGexplained
BerseliusQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]The guy who should be in is Raines. They should kick all the CF out until Raines gets in. (dying laughing)[/quote]They should also kick all blacks out until Raines is in. (dying laughing)
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=mb21]They should also kick all blacks out until Raines is in. (dying laughing)[/quote]
Kick out all the Expos. Suck it, Gary Carter
BerseliusQuote Reply
[quote name=Aisle424]I always bumped up Dawson’s stats because of the era he played in, the stadium he played in, and how much his knees were shredded.[/quote]I’m OK with Dawson being in. Based on WAR he’s at the 50/50 point. The thing I like best about Dawson is that in 1987 when he won the MVP, many players were better including….Bob Brenly. (dying laughing)
mb21Quote Reply
Brenly was a pretty good player and Dawson didn’t have one of his better years.
ACTQuote Reply
Wow. Solomon’s latest contribution is…wow.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
Dawson’s 1987 MVP has to be one of the most puzzling in history. Lots of players (including right fielders) had big years, but it goes to a player who had a decent year on a last-place team. Still not as bad as the year Eck won.
ACTQuote Reply
[quote name=ACT]Dawson’s 1987 MVP has to be one of the most puzzling in history. Lots of players (including right fielders) had big years, but it goes to a player who had a decent year on a last-place team. Still not as bad as the year Eck won.[/quote]Yeah. Letting sportswriters vote for these things is like letting a 10 YO child decide what they want for dinner.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]Yeah. Letting sportswriters vote for these things is like letting a 10 YO child decide what they want for dinner.[/quote]
Placing a bet on Mozzarella Sticks for 2012 MVP right now.
BerseliusQuote Reply
http://www.chicagonow.com/cubs-den/2011/11/cubs-showing-interest-in-grady-sizemore/
BerseliusQuote Reply
[quote name=Berselius]Placing a bet on Mozzarella Sticks for 2012 MVP right now.[/quote]Washed down with a Skittlebräu.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Berselius]http://www.chicagonow.com/cubs-den/2011/11/cubs-showing-interest-in-grady-sizemore/[/quote]As long as the price isn’t prohibitive, I like it. Seems like a great buy-low prospect. Build number-of-starts incentives into the deal, backload it, make sure he gets a thorough physical before coming in…could be a nice bargain and it shouldn’t be hard to build a deal that protects you from further injuries.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
Can someone tell this douche that maybe, just fucking maybe Thomas hit fewer home runs after 5 innings is because of two important reasons.
1. Thomas hit high in the order so had more at bats early in the game.
2. The home team doesn’t bat in the 9th when they’re leading so there’s often only 3 innings remaining after the first 5.
3. Thomas was intentionally walked 87 times in innings 7-9 compared to 66 times in innings 1-6.
4. Many of the non-intentional walks in the late innings were the non-intentional intentional variety because, you know, he was really good at baseball
5. You are retarded
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]Washed down with a Skittlebräu.[/quote]
That 10 year old loves the sauce (dying laughing)
BerseliusQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]As long as the price isn’t prohibitive, I like it. Seems like a great buy-low prospect. Build number-of-starts incentives into the deal, backload it, make sure he gets a thorough physical before coming in…could be a nice bargain and it shouldn’t be hard to build a deal that protects you from further injuries.[/quote]I like it. The Indians declined the $9 million option so he won’t get that. I wouldn’t be surprised to see a deal with a couple options. I actually had started writing a post about Sizemore a couple weeks ago. Maybe I published it and I don’t remember it. (dying laughing)
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=mb21]Can someone tell this douche that maybe, just fucking maybe Thomas hit fewer home runs after 5 innings is because of two important reasons.
1. Thomas hit high in the order so had more at bats early in the game.
2. The home team doesn’t bat in the 9th when they’re leading so there’s often only 3 innings remaining after the first 5.
3. Thomas was intentionally walked 87 times in innings 7-9 compared to 66 times in innings 1-6.
4. Many of the non-intentional walks in the late innings were the non-intentional intentional variety because, you know, he was really good at baseball
5. You are retarded[/quote]He’s made it abundantly clear he has little regard for the facts of the matter.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=mb21]Can someone tell this douche that maybe, just fucking maybe Thomas hit fewer home runs after 5 innings is because of two important reasons.
1. Thomas hit high in the order so had more at bats early in the game.
2. The home team doesn’t bat in the 9th when they’re leading so there’s often only 3 innings remaining after the first 5.
3. Thomas was intentionally walked 87 times in innings 7-9 compared to 66 times in innings 1-6.
4. Many of the non-intentional walks in the late innings were the non-intentional intentional variety because, you know, he was really good at baseball
5. You are retarded[/quote]
They were just walking him to pitch to Ventur…wait…
BerseliusQuote Reply
[quote name=mb21]I like it. The Indians declined the $9 million option so he won’t get that. I wouldn’t be surprised to see a deal with a couple options. I actually had started writing a post about Sizemore a couple weeks ago. Maybe I published it and I don’t remember it. (dying laughing)[/quote]I think they could build a deal very similar to the Milton Bradley deal and get him at a nice price.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
I’m disappointed none of you saw “two important reasons” while listing five of them. (dying laughing)
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=mb21]I’m disappointed none of you saw “two important reasons” while listing five of them. (dying laughing)[/quote]Counting is for cowards and losers. I was too busy being disappointed you said nothing about heart and trying hard.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
Dawson in 1987: 49 HRS and on a national cable network.
That’s what happened.
Aisle424Quote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]He’s made it abundantly clear he has little regard for the facts of the matter.[/quote]I think so too, but I also think simple-minded people sometimes don’t realize that 1) 5 innings is more than half the game (for teams that perform well it’s much more than half the game) and 2) teams pitch around good hitters late in games leaving them with fewer at-bats. And also, batters that hit higher in the order bat more frequently in the first 5 innings. Sometimes they can bat 3 times and once after.
I would also say that there is some evidence to suggest that Thomas hit worse than he normally did in high pressure situations. That, I think, is a true statement. I thought that before I looked at the stats based on what people have said and the stats show it is true. So sometimes if you can show people that some of what they’re saying is true they’re more likely to recognize some of what they’re saying is false.
I don’t think this guy is one of them. That’s why I included number 5.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=mb21]I’m disappointed none of you saw “two important reasons” while listing five of them. (dying laughing)[/quote]
Eh, five is epsilon-close to two, for sufficiently large epsilon
BerseliusQuote Reply
[quote name=Aisle424]Dawson in 1987: 49 HRS and on a national cable network.
That’s what happened.[/quote]I’d actually say it’s even simpler than that. Advanced metrics weren’t popular then. Batting average, home runs and RBI were what even most people evaluated players on. I remember thinking at the time and even years later how awesome that season was. As I learned more I realized it wasn’t, but we can’t fault the voters for not knowing what they couldn’t have known at the time.
mb21Quote Reply
Someone should also ask this guy this question: what difference does it make if the player gathers his numbers early in the game or later in the game? If a player “produces” 100 runs, it doesn’t matter if they’re all produced in the 1st inning or the 9th inning. It’s 100 runs. Period.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=mb21]Someone should also ask this guy this question: what difference does it make if the player gathers his numbers early in the game or later in the game? If a player “produces” 100 runs, it doesn’t matter if they’re all produced in the 1st inning or the 9th inning. It’s 100 runs. Period.[/quote]
80 of those runs were just when the team was up 8-1
/goalpost shifting
BerseliusQuote Reply
[quote name=Aisle424]Dawson in 1987: 49 HRS and on a national cable network.
That’s what happened.[/quote]Stats lie. Stop clinging to your false gods.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=mb21]Someone should also ask this guy this question: what difference does it make if the player gathers his numbers early in the game or later in the game? If a player “produces” 100 runs, it doesn’t matter if they’re all produced in the 1st inning or the 9th inning. It’s 100 runs. Period.[/quote]Because they only count when they count and they didn’t count when they happened because they didn’t count for what was happening at the time because something was out of reach and purple monkey dishwasher.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=mb21]I’m assuming Theo and Z had lunch in Milwaukee, right?[/quote]NO HITTER!
Read through that baseball facebook argument. Classic. I had a friend that suggested that if agents started looking at advanced statistics, then the game would be ruined.
binkyQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]Because they only count when they count and they didn’t count when they happened because they didn’t count for what was happening at the time because something was out of reach and purple monkey dishwasher.[/quote]It’s very simple. Aramis didn’t single-handedly win the Cubs the World Series. That’s the only measure of a player’s worth. End of story.
binkyQuote Reply
[quote name=Berselius]Eh, five is epsilon-close to two, for sufficiently large epsilon[/quote]Kinda like how Ventura is epsilon-close to as good as Thomas, for sufficiently large epsilon. I like this new thinking.
fang2415Quote Reply
[quote name=fang2415]Kinda like how Ventura is epsilon-close to as good as Thomas, for sufficiently large epsilon. I like this new thinking.[/quote]
Koyie Hill is a shitty MLB player with epsilon arbitrary (dying laughing)
BerseliusQuote Reply
[quote name=Berselius]Koyie Hill is a shitty MLB player with epsilon arbitrary (dying laughing)[/quote]For all epsilon greater than zero, there exists a delta such that Koyie Hill + delta still sucks
fang2415Quote Reply
Solomon just called me a dick as his denouement. (dying laughing)
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
I’m guessing the new Sandusky news goes in the PSU thread?
Recalcitrant Blogger NateQuote Reply
Also, looks like GB is doing pretty well in their practice-scrimage.
Recalcitrant Blogger NateQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]Solomon just called me a dick as his denouement. (dying laughing)[/quote]
(dying laughing). I thought he went to go finish his early bird dinner and tuck in to bed at 7
BerseliusQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]Solomon just called me a dick as his denouement. (dying laughing)[/quote]Holy shit, I thought you were just being hyperbolous.
binkyQuote Reply
Slightly tangential, but I really hate how FOX et al. only give you the post seasons stats during the post season. Who cares how he hit during the regular season, this is DIFFERENT.
binkyQuote Reply
[quote name=josh]Slightly tangential, but I really hate how FOX et al. only give you the post seasons stats during the post season. Who cares how he hit during the regular season, this is DIFFERENT.[/quote]This, x10. I don’t even mind if they just show lousy stats like batting average, if they at least show the full-season versions. It’s like once the playoffs start, the stats are back in spring training.
I half-wonder if they do it on purpose to make sure there’s no on-screen evidence to counter all the narratives that the announcers just arbitrarily make up about players.
fang2415Quote Reply
[quote name=fang2415]I don’t even mind if they just show lousy stats like batting average, if they at least show the full-season versions.[/quote]Ironically, the end of a full season is the one time when numbers like single-season BA even come close to being worth a damn because the sample size is so large.
I sometimes wonder that about players that I really only knew from watching them play in the postseason before I knew much about stats. How much of my opinion of players like Dave Stewart or Kirby Puckett comes only from some shit that some broadcaster made up that week?
fang2415Quote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]Solomon just called me a dick as his denouement. (dying laughing)[/quote]Was he wrong?
(kidding)
(sort of)
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=fang2415]I half-wonder if they do it on purpose to make sure there’s no on-screen evidence to counter all the narratives that the announcers just arbitrarily make up about players.[/quote]Incidentally, the reason I only half-wonder this is because I doubt that the TV producers are actually that smart (dying laughing)
fang2415Quote Reply
[quote name=Rice Cube]Was he wrong?
(kidding)
(sort of)[/quote]Of course not. That was the only true thing he said in the entire thread.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
Now, see if I were really a dick, I’d send Alan Solomon a friend request. (dying laughing)
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]Of course not. That was the only true thing he said in the entire thread.[/quote]FACT
fang2415Quote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]Now, see if I were really a dick, I’d send Alan Solomon a friend request. (dying laughing)[/quote]DO IT.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=fang2415]FACT[/quote]You can’t talk to me about your false fact gods until you can accurately quantify heart and grit.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
The only surprise about tonight’s game is that Aaron Rodgers has been sacked three times. Although I don’t know GB’s O-line play all that well so maybe this is normal.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
Mariners willing to eat cash to move Figgins. Soriano swap?
Recalcitrant Blogger NateQuote Reply
[quote name=Rice Cube]The only surprise about tonight’s game is that Aaron Rodgers has been sacked three times. Although I don’t know GB’s O-line play all that well so maybe this is normal.[/quote]GB’s OL is not good, but McCarthy has set up the offense so it’s all short drops with underneath routes so Rodgers can always get the ball out quickly when he has to. That offensive scheme the talent at WR and Rodgers’ lightning quick release cover a multitude of OL sins.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Recalcitrant Blogger Nate]Mariners willing to eat cash to move Figgins. Soriano swap?[/quote]No thanks.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]GB’s OL is not good, but McCarthy has set up the offense so it’s all short drops with underneath routes so Rodgers can always get the ball out quickly when he has to. That offensive scheme the talent at WR and Rodgers’ lightning quick release cover a multitude of OL sins.[/quote]Thanks for the explanation.
Dick.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
I guess it doesn’t matter as long as GB outscores the opponent by so much but the defense just seems so shaky.
I’m also not sure I want Figgins on the Cubs unless the Mariners pay for both Soriano and Figgins (dying laughing)
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=Rice Cube]I guess it doesn’t matter as long as GB outscores the opponent by so much but the defense just seems so shaky.
I’m also not sure I want Figgins on the Cubs unless the Mariners pay for both Soriano and Figgins (dying laughing)[/quote]Yeah that GB secondary is really bad.
Same for me on Figgins. Swapping clubhouse problems is one thing; swapping speed merchants whose legs have left them seems like spinning one’s wheels.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]Yeah that GB secondary is really bad.
[/quote]
I think the bigger difference is the pass rush, though they are missing Collins in the backfield. They’re getting pressure but nothing like they used to. I’m surprised by how much they’re seeming to miss Cullen Jenkins. Not that huge of a deal though when you’re scoring 500 points a game though (dying laughing).
BerseliusQuote Reply
Wait, Green Bay has a plan to counter a weak offensive line? Does Martz know this is even an option?
Whoever the dude was on the OL who messed up his wrist, it must have been pretty bad, b/c Lovie mentioned in the postgame that I watched this morning that the guy had already has surgery.
binkyQuote Reply
I know passer rating is overrated (pun intended) but Aaron Rodgers’ is pretty impressive.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=josh]Wait, Green Bay has a plan to counter a weak offensive line? Does Martz know this is even an option?
Whoever the dude was on the OL who messed up his wrist, it must have been pretty bad, b/c Lovie mentioned in the postgame that I watched this morning that the guy had already has surgery.[/quote]
I think he was on his way to the operating table before the game ended. If not, pretty close.
BerseliusQuote Reply
DeMarlo Hale ——–> interviewed for Cubs manager position
Aisle424Quote Reply
Hoyer did a phone interview with DeMarlo Hale
BerseliusQuote Reply
[quote name=Berselius]I think the bigger difference is the pass rush, though they are missing Collins in the backfield. They’re getting pressure but nothing like they used to. I’m surprised by how much they’re seeming to miss Cullen Jenkins. Not that huge of a deal though when you’re scoring 500 points a game though (dying laughing).[/quote]Yeah, Matthews has not provided consistent pressure like he did last season and they really miss the pressure up the middle they got last season.
[quote name=josh]Wait, Green Bay has a plan to counter a weak offensive line? Does Martz know this is even an option?
Whoever the dude was on the OL who messed up his wrist, it must have been pretty bad, b/c Lovie mentioned in the postgame that I watched this morning that the guy had already has surgery.[/quote]Martz seems to be learning since Jay had that game were he just stopped running the offense and started doing his own thing.
Williams has the same wrist injury that cost Urlacher a whole season a couple years ago. It’s bad.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Aisle424]DeMarlo Hale ——–> interviewed for Cubs manager position[/quote]Who?
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
per Bruce Miles, “Theo said they know him well enough that a face-to-face wasn’t needed”
BerseliusQuote Reply
On the other side. Zombo has been out most of the year and Walden has filled in. Walden looked good last year but he’s looked pretty mediocre this year.
though FWIW Zombo was probably due for a sophomore slump as well
BerseliusQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]Who?[/quote]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DeMarlo_Hale
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]Who?[/quote]
Sox bench coach
BerseliusQuote Reply
[quote name=Berselius]Sox bench coach[/quote]Ah. This has been an odd slate of candidates, no?
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]Ah. This has been an odd slate of candidates, no?[/quote]
Eh. They know Hale. The only big name out there right now is Tito, who might not want to coach. Unless you count Brenly and Valentine, which I know you don’t.
BerseliusQuote Reply
So, Hale is from Chicago and was a finalist for the Blue Jays job last season. Have we maybe found a new frontrunner?
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
I’m still hoping for the Maddices
BerseliusQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]So, Hale is from Chicago and was a finalist for the Blue Jays job last season. Have we maybe found a new frontrunner?[/quote]Would that count as trying to poach someone away from the Red Sox and thus raise a compensation ruckus?
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]So, Hale is from Chicago and was a finalist for the Blue Jays job last season. Have we maybe found a new frontrunner?[/quote]
The beat guys are saying it’s unlikely. Which means he was probably hired last week.
BerseliusQuote Reply
Word on the street is that Theo is going to give Z a chance to remain a Cub. Could be genuine, could be just putting up the appearance of non-desperation to unload him.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=Rice Cube]Would that count as trying to poach someone away from the Red Sox and thus raise a compensation ruckus?[/quote]I doubt it. Most coaches are allowed to move if the move is a promotion.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Rice Cube]Word on the street is that Theo is going to give Z a chance to remain a Cub. Could be genuine, could be just putting up the appearance of non-desperation to unload him.[/quote]Probably a bit of both.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Berselius]The beat guys are saying it’s unlikely. Which means he was probably hired last week.[/quote]
He was my prediction on WTF a few weeks ago before the interviewing started. My horse is still alive!
Aisle424Quote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]Probably a bit of both.[/quote]I will agree. Circle gets the square!
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=Rice Cube]Word on the street is that Theo is going to give Z a chance to remain a Cub. Could be genuine, could be just putting up the appearance of non-desperation to unload him.[/quote]
Or just priming the pump for telling the Chi media that he’s sticking around.
BerseliusQuote Reply
I just read through MO’s little spat on Miles’s wall. That was half-amusing and half-eye-gouging-inducing. So obtuse.
MishQuote Reply
[quote name=Mish]I just read through MO’s little spat on Miles’s wall. That was half-amusing and half-eye-gouging-inducing. So obtuse.[/quote]What did you call me?
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=Mish]I just read through MO’s little spat on Miles’s wall. That was half-amusing and half-eye-gouging-inducing. So obtuse.[/quote]It’s so frustrating when you have spend half an argument fending off dubious rhetorical tricks and the other half trying to convince someone who has already decided no to believe, of a simple, clear set of facts.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Aisle424]DeMarlo Hale ——–> interviewed for Cubs manager position[/quote]I thought they desperately wanted to avoid recreating the Boston show.
ACTQuote Reply
[quote name=ACT]I thought they desperately wanted to avoid recreating the Boston show.[/quote]The word choices of “desperately” and “avoid” were probably too strong.
binkyQuote Reply
[quote name=ACT]I thought they desperately wanted to avoid recreating the Boston show.[/quote]There’s a sorites paradox here: if I rebuild the ship of Theo piece by piece, at what point is it the ship of Theo again?
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]There’s a sorites paradox here: if I rebuild the ship of Theo piece by piece, at what point is it the ship of Theo again?[/quote]When you feel it in your heart.
GBTSQuote Reply
[quote name=GBTS]When you feel it in your heart.[/quote]Dicks don’t have hearts.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
The Vikings must really suck.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=Aisle424]DeMarlo Hale ——–> interviewed for Cubs manager position[/quote]I like this Hale guy. I think I mentioned him early on. I’ve read good things about him.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=Berselius]per Bruce Miles, “Theo said they know him well enough that a face-to-face wasn’t needed”[/quote]He’s been in Boston for a long time. He worked with Tito in Texas before Tito went to Oakland.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=Aisle424]He was my prediction on WTF a few weeks ago before the interviewing started. My horse is still alive![/quote]I’ve been surprised he wasn’t interviewed so far. I’d kind of be surprised if he got the manager’s gig, but wouldn’t be surprised if the Cubs hired him as the bench coach.
mb21Quote Reply
He sounds good. I wish they’d get the manager search over with soon. They have more important matters to deal with.
ACTQuote Reply
[quote name=ACT]He sounds good. I wish they’d get the manager search over with soon. They have more important matters to deal with.[/quote]I’m sure they can do other things concurrently (dying laughing)
Especially now that it’s being handled by 17 guys instead of one Hendry (but I am embellishing a bit)
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=Rice Cube]I’m sure they can do other things concurrently (dying laughing)
[/quote]I know; I’m just impatient.
ACTQuote Reply
[quote name=ACT]I know; I’m just impatient.[/quote]After 103 years, I think you can be forgiven.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=ACT]He sounds good. I wish they’d get the manager search over with soon. They have more important matters to deal with.[/quote]Like finding a way to quantify heart.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]Like finding a way to quantify heart.[/quote]Reed Johnson has two ventricles above replacement.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=Rice Cube]Reed Johnson has two ventricles above replacement.[/quote]The unit measurement for heart is the Derosa. Reed is 2 Derosas above replacement grinder.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]The unit measurement for heart is the Derosa. Reed is 2 Derosas above replacement grinder.[/quote]Is that with or without a grit multiplier?
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=Rice Cube]Is that with or without a grit multiplier?[/quote]DARG++ is weighted for grit and scrap, and is park adjusted for leadership and willpower.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]DARG++ is weighted for grit and scrap, and is park adjusted for leadership and willpower.[/quote]There must be a penalty for excessive melanin in that calculation.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
Off topic a bit, but is CJ Wilson doing that upside-down W thing you guys were talking about once upon a time?
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=Rice Cube]There must be a penalty for excessive melanin in that calculation.[/quote]No, but there is a negative correction for having actual talent.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
Looks more like a lower-case m to me.
ACTQuote Reply
[quote name=Rice Cube]Off topic a bit, but is CJ Wilson doing that upside-down W thing you guys were talking about once upon a time?
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]The unit measurement for heart is the Derosa. Reed is 2 Derosas above replacement grinder.[/quote]
You have to make sure to regionalize that stat. In other parts of the country it’s DeRosas above replacement hoagie.
BerseliusQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]It’s not an “M,” it’s an inverted “W”.[/quote]Inverted! That was the word. My mistake.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=Berselius]You have to make sure to regionalize that stat. In other parts of the country it’s DeRosas above replacement hoagie.[/quote]There will be no equivocation jokes about being grindy. No dinner for you.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Gordo]But in a surprise concession by an organization that had seemed to wash its hands of its mercurial former ace, Epstein said Monday night that Zambrano has been given one last chance.[/quote]I’d have preferred recalcitrant
Suburban kid 22Quote Reply
[quote name=dylanj]K-State is going to own TX Ryno. Just accept it.[/quote]
Which is why I posted the line. I wanted to share the opportunity for free money.
Dr. Aneus TaintQuote Reply
[quote name=mb21]Heyman says the Cubs will do a second round of interviews.[/quote]So wait a minute: does this mean that they’re doing another interview with some of the people they’ve already talked to? Or that they’re interviewing a whole new set of people?
Usually when an employer does a “second round of interviews” it means a winnowing down of successful candidates from the first round, but if they’re talking to Hale maybe it just means they’re finding some more options? In which case they can’t be too optimistic about Maddux, Sveum, Mackanin, or Alomar, can they?
fang2415Quote Reply
[quote name=fang2415]So wait a minute: does this mean that they’re doing another interview with some of the people they’ve already talked to? Or that they’re interviewing a whole new set of people?
Usually when an employer does a “second round of interviews” it means a winnowing down of successful candidates from the first round, but if they’re talking to Hale maybe it just means they’re finding some more options? In which case they can’t be too optimistic about Maddux, Sveum, Mackanin, or Alomar, can they?[/quote]
More importantly, what inning is it? If they are doing a second round, are they in Extra Innings? Is this a double header?
WaLiQuote Reply
[quote name=WaLi]More importantly, what inning is it? If they are doing a second round, are the in Extra Innings? Is this a double header?[/quote]
I think it’s the 17th wicket
BerseliusQuote Reply
[quote name=fang2415]So wait a minute: does this mean that they’re doing another interview with some of the people they’ve already talked to? Or that they’re interviewing a whole new set of people?
Usually when an employer does a “second round of interviews” it means a winnowing down of successful candidates from the first round, but if they’re talking to Hale maybe it just means they’re finding some more options? In which case they can’t be too optimistic about Maddux, Sveum, Mackanin, or Alomar, can they?[/quote]
It sounds like they are in the “Decision Making Phase” this week, so I would assume the second interviews are for those already interviewed.
WaLiQuote Reply
[quote name=WaLi]It sounds like they are in the “Decision Making Phase” this week, so I would assume the second interviews are for those already interviewed.[/quote]My first thought was talking again to the ones they liked most.
binkyQuote Reply
2011 GIBBY Awards
Starlin —–> WOW Factor of the Year
Dempster —–> Oddity of the Year
WTF (dying laughing)
http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/awards/y2011/gibbys/index.jsp?category=wow_factor&partnerId=ed-5435979-232433436
WenningtonsGorillaCockQuote Reply
[quote name=Berselius]I think it’s the 17th wicket[/quote]Of a test match or a one-day?
fang2415Quote Reply
[quote name=WaLi]It sounds like they are in the “Decision Making Phase” this week, so I would assume the second interviews are for those already interviewed.[/quote]Yeah, so… DeMarlo Hale? Or did his interview count as being from the sandwich round? (dying laughing)
fang2415Quote Reply
[quote name=fang2415]So wait a minute: does this mean that they’re doing another interview with some of the people they’ve already talked to? Or that they’re interviewing a whole new set of people?
Usually when an employer does a “second round of interviews” it means a winnowing down of successful candidates from the first round, but if they’re talking to Hale maybe it just means they’re finding some more options? In which case they can’t be too optimistic about Maddux, Sveum, Mackanin, or Alomar, can they?[/quote]
They have always wanted to speak with Hale, but I think the Red Sox dragged their feet on giving permission. There was an interview where Theo said something about how they’d received permission to talk with Maddux and someone else and were waiting on responses to e-mails for others and I believe Hale was one of those where they were waiting.
Aisle424Quote Reply
Right, so they have probably narrowed it down to a couple guys for second interviews.
When that Francona article came out, I thought he might have become the frontrunner. But now I think that if it was going to be Francona, it would already be done and dusted, and they wouldn’t have been talking to yet another candidate (Hale) this late in the process.
Suburban kid 22Quote Reply
[quote name=WenningtonsGorillaCock]2011 GIBBY Awards
Starlin —–> WOW Factor of the Year
Dempster —–> Oddity of the Year
WTF (dying laughing)
http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/awards/y2011/gibbys/index.jsp?category=wow_factor&partnerId=ed-5435979-232433436%5B/quote%5DYou know what would make MLB even more special? MORE AWARDS!
binkyQuote Reply
[quote name=josh]You know what would make MLB even more special? MORE COWBELL![/quote]
Rice CubeQuote Reply
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=Suburban kid 22]
When that Francona article came out, I thought he might have become the frontrunner. But now I think that if it was going to be Francona, it would already be done and dusted, and they wouldn’t have been talking to yet another candidate (Hale) this late in the process.[/quote]
It’s seemed to me that according to the media the frontrunner has always been who the Cubs most recently interviewed. When there was a gap between interviews the Francona stuff came up. Just trying to sell papers.
Next we’ll hear that Todd Ricketts walked past a restaurant where Bobby Valentine was eating and he’ll be the new frontrunner.
BerseliusQuote Reply
[quote name=Berselius]It’s seemed to me that according to the media the frontrunner has always been who the Cubs most recently interviewed. When there was a gap between interviews the Francona stuff came up. Just trying to sell papers.
Next we’ll hear that Todd Ricketts walked past a restaurant where Bobby Valentine was eating and he’ll be the new frontrunner.[/quote]I hope Bobby V yells at Todd on national TV for 30 minutes about throwing away those hot dogs.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
New stuff:
http://obstructedview.net/chicago-cubs/articles/theos-first-mistake.html
AndCountingQuote Reply