Since Aramis Ramirez has started hitting again and hitting it quite well, it seems more likely than not that the Cubs will keep him around next season. However, I don’t think we can be certain the Cubs will just exercise the option and move on to other business. The Cubs are currently at about $100 million in payroll, which includes guaranteed contracts, estimated salaries for arbitration eligible players, league minimum players that fill out the roster and the 15 who are on the 40-man roster, but not on the 25-man.
Ramirez’s option is for $16 million or there’s a $2 million buyout. He’s not worth $16 million anymore so I don’t know that the Cubs will want to exercise that option. If they do want to keep Ramirez, I’m guessing they work out a new contract extension. We know Ramirez will be on board with this. He loves Chicago and he loves playing for the Cubs. He’s twice taken less money than he’d have gotten on the free agent market. I’m betting Jim Hendry tries to make it three times. The question is, if they go this direction of course, what kind of extension are we talking about and how much money will it be worth?
Baseball Prospectus updated their position player projections yesterday. They have Ramirez being worth 0.8 WARP the rest of the season on 169 plate appearances. If we increase that to 550 next year we get 2.6. Let’s subtract a little because of age and go with 2.5. That seems more than reasonable. With a win value expected to be about $4.8 million, that makes Ramirez worth $12 million next season. Here’s roughly what we’d expect from Ramirez over the next few seasons: 2.5 WAR, 2.0, 1.5.
We’ll say the win value goes from $4.8 million in 2012 to $5.1 million to $5.4 million in 2014. That’s $10.1 million in 2013 and $8.1 million in 2014. Add in the 10% discount that teams get for signing players to 3 years or more and we get a total contract value of $27.2 million over 3 years. Let’s assume that Ramirez would again give the Cubs a discount as he has in the past and we’ll say 3 years and $24 million.
Ramirez doesn’t have a player option so it’s not like he’s ripping up the $16 million. He’s not going to get $16 million in free agency next season. He’s worth about $27 million over 3 years on the free agent market. The next question is whether or not it would be wise for the Cubs to do this. Remember, they do have a lot of money coming off the books, but they don’t have unlimited funds.
We’ve already talked about how a platoon of Jeff Baker and some cheap lefty could potentially produce a similar amount of value. However, there’s still a lot of uncertainty in that platoon whereas you basically know what you’re getting with Ramirez. The Cubs will have to structure Ramirez’s new contract in a way that benefits them more in the near term since they want to contend. Paying him $6 million in 2012, $8 million in 2013 and $10 million 2014 would seem to be a reasonable schedule. The Cubs are already on the hook for a $2 million buyout so they’re only paying their 3rd baseman an additional $4 million next season.
There’s a big question mark to all of this, though. It was mentioned here several times when we debated whether or not the Cubs should even offer him arbitration if they did not trade him, some pointed to scarcity and leverage as a reason why they should. Jack did the same thing on his blog in a very good article. There aren’t any good 3rd basemen available this offseason on the free agent market. It’s difficult to even call Ramirez a good player at this point in his career. He’s a little better than average so if that’s your measure of good then so be it. Regardless of whether he’s good, average or whatever, he’s easily the best 3rd baseman available. I don’t think you could find anyone who would argue that point.
Does that give him additional value? It makes sense that it would, but are we really sure that’s how things have played out on the free agent market over the years? I’m not certain. If someone wanted to look at the best free agents available at each position and calculate their expected salary using Marcels, we’d get an idea if there’s any truth to that. I might be more willing to believe it if the player was the best player available in a thin free agent market. Even then I’m not sure I would. We’ve often heard GMs talk about how trading is going to important when the free agent market is thin. They seem to recognize the value for what it is and not for its scarcity. I can only guess because I haven’t done the work and honestly have no desire to do so. What I do know is that there are several hitters better than Ramirez available this offseason.
At first base alone you have Albert Pujols, Prince Fielder, Lance Berkman and maybe even Carlos Pena. At shortstop is Jose Reyes and you could add Jimmy Rollins and Rafael Furcal in because they’re more valuable than Ramirez when you factor in position, defense and baserunning. I’m too lazy to look through all the outfielders, but Carlos Beltran is available. Aramis Ramirez may not even be in the top 10 among position players for expected 2012 value. Add in the guys who emerge as trade candidates and I have a hard time believing that teams are going to grossly overpay for someone like that. Ramirez may be the best 3rd baseman available, but he’s not an elite talent these days and he’s not close to the best free agent position player available this offseason.
I can’t possibly know what kind of contract Aramis Ramirez and his agent would be looking for or what kind of extension they’d be willing to accept. What I know is that his projected value over the next 3 years is about $30 million. Teams pay 10% less for long-term contracts. I also know the Cubs can use every penny next year if they want to contend so paying Ramirez $16 million would not help in that effort unless payroll will be increased greatly. If the Cubs want to keep Ramirez, I think it’s because they want to extend him for lesser money in 2012 than he’d get if they exercised the option.
UPDATE: fivetoolmike on twitter suggested Ramirez is more likely to get a 2/24 deal than a 3/24 deal. That may be true at which point I don’t want the Cubs to re-sign him. Anyway, I immediately thought of Scott Rolen who I think is a pretty good comp for Ramirez at the plate. After Rolen’s 8-year deal ended in 2010, he signed a 2-year, $13 million contract with the Reds. While two years older than Ramirez will be at the end of the year, Rolen hit .295/.363/.476 over the previous two seasons (most of which were in the American League for what it’s worth). His OPS+ was 120. He was worth 8.3 rWAR over the preceding two seasons. Rolen had 1072 plate appearances.
Aramis Ramirez has hit .262/.311/.472 (105 OPS+). Ramirez, so far, has had 957 plate appearances. He’ll finish the season with about the same amount of playing time that Scott Rolen had the two years combined before free agency. Ramirez has been worth .9 rWAR.
Scott Rolen was the considerably better player entering free agency. Even if you just look at batting runs, Rolen’s 33 beats Ramirez’s 3 by a huge amount. Rolen was not only the better hitter, but also the better fielder and better baserunner. He was paid $6.5 million in 2011 and $6.5 million in 2012.
Looking at this, the most recent comparable, Aramis Ramirez should not be paid more than Rolen was. After looking at this again, I think a 3/24 contract may be a bit high based on the most recent comparable who signed a free agent contract.
Comments
Nice work, mb. It does seem that you’ve overlooked the logjam of talented 3B prospects clogging the farm system. They’ll all probably get flipped for Ricky Nolasco anyway.
AndCountingQuote Reply
Over the last two seasons, Ramirez has put up absolutely brutal numbers at the beginning of the season. Then, when things are pretty much over and the pressure is off, he hits better.
At one point last year, I remember Jayson Stark writing that Ramirez’s numbers were historically bad. And this year, you know how many homers he had through April and May? Guess.
Two.
I’m not saying they shouldn’t re-sign him, but I am saying he doesn’t put up even decent numbers until the heat is off. Which makes Vitters’ questionable makeup (at best) all the more problematic.
Steve SwisherQuote Reply
I updated this post.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=Steve Swisher]Over the last two seasons, Ramirez has put up absolutely brutal numbers at the beginning of the season. Then, when things are pretty much over and the pressure is off, he hits better.
At one point last year, I remember Jayson Stark writing that Ramirez’s numbers were historically bad. And this year, you know how many homers he had through April and May? Guess.
Two.
I’m not saying they shouldn’t re-sign him, but I am saying he doesn’t put up even decent numbers until the heat is off. Which makes Vitters’ questionable makeup (at best) all the more problematic.[/quote]I think if we looked back prior to 2010 we’d see a different story. If it’s more than 3/24, I want the Cubs to pass. After comparing him to Rolen, I think 3/21 might be the most I’d do.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=mb21]I think if we looked back prior to 2010 we’d see a different story. [/quote]
This is true. He’s had some monster beginning of seasons, not surprisingly synching up with some of the Cubs better seasons this past decade (04, 07-08).
MishQuote Reply
I dunno if I buy the “pressure” argument on why Ramirez sucks at the beginning of the season. I doubt anyone aims to suck and then decides to turn it on when it doesn’t matter. If you believe in the “contract year myth” then Ramirez has every incentive to not suck all year. Just so happens that when he stopped sucking, the rest of the team continued to suck anyway. I guess that’s shitty variance.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
Yeah, I really hate it when people try to read motivations into players’ statistics. Aramis was disinterested and then remembered it was a contract year, Soriano doesn’t care how well he plays since he has a huge contract, etc.
ACTQuote Reply
Awesome:
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/blog/big_league_stew/post/Letters-When-a-small-gesture-by-Charlie-Manuel-?urn=mlb-wp15360
Rice CubeQuote Reply
Speculation from Levine, but interesting way to state it:
.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
That’s…weird. BJax has OBP = .393 right now, almost 100 points over his batting average. Small sample blah blah blah.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
KG
Brett Jackson, OF, Cubs (Triple-A Iowa): 2-for-5, 2B, RBI, 2 K. 14 of 27 Triple-A hits have gone for extra bases; .297/.393/.615 overall.
MishQuote Reply
[quote name=Rice Cube]That’s…weird. BJax has OBP = .393 right now, almost 100 points over his batting average. Small sample blah blah blah.[/quote]
Followup:
Wonder when they bother putting him on the 40-man so he can hang out in Chicago in September.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
Hmmmm
http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/08/09/white-sox-rotation-could-go-from-six-to-four
MishQuote Reply
[quote name=Mish]Hmmmm
http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/08/09/white-sox-rotation-could-go-from-25-or-six-to-four[/quote]
/Chicago’d
Rice CubeQuote Reply
I would not mind either the spend money approach or the buil;d the farm apprioach. Just dont try and do one while telling me you want to compete
bubblesdachimpQuote Reply
Why include the comment if you’re going to ignore it?
Dr. Aneus TaintQuote Reply
[quote name=Dr. Aneus Taint]Why include the comment if you’re going to ignore it?[/quote]
It’s how Bruce Levine rolls, man.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=Rice Cube]/Chicago’d[/quote]
i approve
dylanjQuote Reply
Hey mb, are you going to post the results of the top prospects poll? I’m curious to see if Vitters made the top 10.
adnielsenQuote Reply
[quote name=adnielsen]Hey mb, are you going to post the results of the top prospects poll? I’m curious to see if Vitters made the top 10.[/quote]
Levine: It’s a good poll. Keep that in mind.
Dr. Aneus TaintQuote Reply
[quote name=Rice Cube]Wonder when they bother putting him on the 40-man so he can hang out in Chicago in September.[/quote]Uh, when they’re out of the division race. Are we giving up on Seeing What Happens, or what?
binkyQuote Reply
I really don’t want to see Ramirez in two years, or even the year after next. Next year I could live with, but I see your point that he probably wouldn’t go for it.
binkyQuote Reply
[quote name=Mish]This is true. He’s had some monster beginning of seasons, not surprisingly synching up with some of the Cubs better seasons this past decade (04, 07-08).[/quote]
Ramirez has had some decent starts to seasons, but it’s been a while. And if you peep his post-season numbers, he had 4 homers in ’03, so that’s solid. But in ’07 and ’08, he batted .000 (dying laughing) and .182, respectively.
I know it’s easy/racist to go along with the lazy Latin meme. That said, I just don’t really feel like he cares that much. It absolutely drives me crazy when players are admiring their homers that hit the top of the wall, and they’re barely safe at second (or out, or stuck at first). I’ve seen that happen to Ramirez a few times.
I know I’m veering close to gutty/Eckstein territory here, but I think there’s something to be said for a player who plays with “heart.” Maybe Ramirez is just laid-back. And that would be fine if there were other players who could pick up the slack. But when you combine his laissez-faire demeanor with his atrocious production at the start of the last two years, well, it’s hard to see someone who has that Jordan-esque fire.
Steve SwisherQuote Reply
[quote name=josh]Uh, when they’re out of the division race. Are we giving up on Seeing What Happens, or what?[/quote]
I think they’re getting close to that point if they aren’t already out of it.
I seem to recall that being put on the 40-man roster comes with a salary increase as well? Maybe they just want to keep BJax lower-cost. Le shrug.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=Steve Swisher]Ramirez has had some decent starts to seasons, but it’s been a while. And if you peep his post-season numbers, he had 4 homers in ’03, so that’s solid. But in ’07 and ’08, he batted .000 (dying laughing) and .182, respectively.
I know it’s easy/racist to go along with the lazy Latin meme. That said, I just don’t really feel like he cares that much. It absolutely drives me crazy when players are admiring their homers that hit the top of the wall, and they’re barely safe at second (or out, or stuck at first). I’ve seen that happen to Ramirez a few times.
I know I’m veering close to gutty/Eckstein territory here, but I think there’s something to be said for a player who plays with “heart.” Maybe Ramirez is just laid-back. And that would be fine if there were other players who could pick up the slack. But when you combine his laissez-faire demeanor with his atrocious production at the start of the last two years, well, it’s hard to see someone who has that Jordan-esque fire.[/quote]I wonder if the problem isn’t that he feels like he’s hitting them well, as well as he did 3 years ago, and it would have easily been out then, but the power just isn’t quite as good. I think it was Ron Santo who said he knew it was time to hang it up when he hit one and just knew he got all of it, but it barely made it to the warning track.
binkyQuote Reply
[quote name=Rice Cube]I think they’re getting close to that point if they aren’t already out of it.
I seem to recall that being put on the 40-man roster comes with a salary increase as well? Maybe they just want to keep BJax lower-cost. Le shrug.[/quote]Technically, no. They are 17.5 games back with 50 games left to play. All they need is for Cinncinati, Pittsburgh, St. Louis, and Milwaukee to go on epic losing streaks and for the Cubs to win 20 in a row and they’re right back in it.
binkyQuote Reply
http://espn.go.com/nfl/powerrankings/_/year/2011/week/0
Dr. Aneus TaintQuote Reply
Hey fuckers, you want to see some depressing ass-shit?
http://www.hulu.com/watch/261088/talking-baseball-with-ed-randall-greg-maddux#s-p2-so-i0
Maddux in 1992 talking about the Cubs
fight2winQuote Reply
[quote name=fight2win]Hey fuckers, you want to see some depressing ass-shit?
http://www.hulu.com/watch/261088/talking-baseball-with-ed-randall-greg-maddux#s-p2-so-i0
Maddux in 1992 talking about the Cubs[/quote]
“My attorney, Scott Boras…”
That guy!
binkyQuote Reply
Luckily, the Cubs are under new ownership and would never let an obviously future hall of famer go after he accepted their crappy deal.
binkyQuote Reply
[quote name=josh]Technically, no. They are 17.5 games back with 50 games left to play. All they need is for Cinncinati, Pittsburgh, St. Louis, and Milwaukee to go on epic losing streaks and for the Cubs to win 20 in a row and they’re right back in it.[/quote]Did I calculate correclty that the Cubs E# is 32? So the combination of the Brewers winnig + Cubs losing can’t be greater than 32 for the Cubs to pull ahead (some larger number for the Reds, Pirates, and Cardinals)
So you’re telling me there’s a chance… *YEAH!*
WaLiQuote Reply
[quote name=WaLi]Did I calculate correclty that the Cubs E# is 32? So the combination of the Brewers winnig + Cubs losing can’t be greater than 32 for the Cubs to pull ahead (some larger number for the Reds, Pirates, and Cardinals)
So you’re telling me there’s a chance… *YEAH!*[/quote]Exactly! When they’re technically eliminated, then they’ll think about call ups. Don’t want to blow their chances!
binkyQuote Reply
[quote name=fight2win]Hey fuckers, you want to see some depressing ass-shit?
http://www.hulu.com/watch/261088/talking-baseball-with-ed-randall-greg-maddux#s-p2-so-i0
Maddux in 1992 talking about the Cubs[/quote]I want to die.
AndCountingQuote Reply
[quote name=Dr. Aneus Taint]http://espn.go.com/nfl/powerrankings/_/year/2011/week/0[/quote]
I like it (dying laughing)
BerseliusQuote Reply
[quote name=fight2win]Hey fuckers, you want to see some depressing ass-shit?[/quote]
Redundant. I finf it hard to believe that there’s any ass-shit out there that isn’t depressing.
#hyphenplacement
Dr. Aneus TaintQuote Reply
The wind is howling out at Wrigley right now. Could be a crazy game tonight if it keeps up.
BerseliusQuote Reply
Dr. Aneus TaintQuote Reply
[quote name=Berselius]The wind is howling out at Wrigley right now. Could be a crazy game tonight if it keeps up.[/quote]Maybe Campana could hit a real home run.
ACTQuote Reply
[quote name=ACT]Maybe Campana could hit a real home run.[/quote]More likely one of his throws to the infield gets caught in the wind and carried out of the field.
binkyQuote Reply
[quote name=Steve Swisher]I’m not saying they shouldn’t re-sign him, but I am saying he doesn’t put up even decent numbers until the heat is off. Which makes Vitters’ questionable makeup (at best) all the more problematic.[/quote]
So you think they should re-sign him then?
I guess I don’t understand this. Are you thinking that when the cubs are 10-10 that Ramirez is struggling because the Cubs aren’t out of it yet? Do you have any explanation for his early season performances in seasons previous to the last 2? Are you saying he just now has begun wilting under the harsh sun of not being mathematically eliminated yet in April.
How does this figure into Josh Vitters’ ‘questionable’ makeup? Are you saying that Vitters too can’t hack the pressure of a AA pennant race, or are you eluding to the general concept of Vitters’ low walk ratio?
Chris DickersonQuote Reply
The art of MLB pranking:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111904140604576496352012178870.html?mod=ITP_personaljournal_3
This seems dangerous: “Pittsburgh Pirates reliever Evan Meek said one prank with staying power is loading up an orange with shots of Anbesol—an oral numbing ointment—and waiting for an unsuspecting teammate to consume it. Hilarity ensues. How much Anbesol, exactly? “Not a lot,” Meek said. “Just a few squirts here and there. Enough to numb your whole mouth.”‘
WenningtonsGorillaCockQuote Reply
I was under the impression its all but guaranteed Vitters will be playing LF (or 1b if Fielder/Pujols doesn’t materialize)
ABQuote Reply
[quote name=fight2win]Hey fuckers, you want to see some depressing ass-shit?
http://www.hulu.com/watch/261088/talking-baseball-with-ed-randall-greg-maddux#s-p2-so-i0
Maddux in 1992 talking about the Cubs[/quote]
I swear to God, I will punch Larry Himes in his fucking face if I ever meet him. That whole thing playing out the way it did is a traveshamockery that even Ricketts will have a hard time eclipsing.
Aisle424Quote Reply
[quote name=AB]I was under the impression its all but guaranteed Vitters will be playing LF (or 1b if Fielder/Pujols doesn’t materialize)[/quote]
My understanding is that Vitters will make us long for Micah Hoffpauir.
Aisle424Quote Reply
[quote name=Aisle424]My understanding is that Vitters will make us long for Micah Hoffpauir.[/quote]Ouch.
binkyQuote Reply
[quote name=Aisle424]I swear to God, I will punch Larry Himes in his fucking face if I ever meet him. That whole thing playing out the way it did is a traveshamockery that even Ricketts will have a hard time eclipsing.[/quote]I find it hard to completely hate the guy who made the George Bell-Sammy Sosa trade.
ACTQuote Reply
[quote name=ACT]I find it hard to completely hate the guy who made the George Bell-Sammy Sosa trade.[/quote]I’d almost give up Sammy to have never had to see Gregg Maddux put on a Braves uniform.
binkyQuote Reply
Eh, having that all-time great pitching staff was pretty cool. Also Maddux got to go to the world series several times and win one.
ACTQuote Reply
so we signed Rock Shoulders for 3rd rnd money. Bud is gonna hate us.
dylanjQuote Reply
[quote name=ACT]I find it hard to completely hate the guy who made the George Bell-Sammy Sosa trade.[/quote]
Actually, I loved Sammy Sosa, but his presence on the team allowed the Cubs to get a whole bunch of fuckery in the name of contention while he was in town.
Would they have really been able to put lineups together that involved Damon Buford and Shane Andrews as key parts? That team was the Sammy Sosa Show for a good 4 or 5 years and only stopped because Sammy started to slow down and the Cubs knew he couldn’t carry the Hope all by himself anymore.`
Aisle424Quote Reply
[quote name=josh]I’d almost give up Sammy to have never had to see Gregg Maddux put on a Braves uniform.[/quote]
That off-season made me physically ill. I understand the Dawson thing, but Maddux being shown the gate was unconscionable. Then it was compounded by their replacements being Candy fucking Maldonado and the wrong Guzman.
Aisle424Quote Reply
The loss of Maddux also partly paved the way for Sandberg’s (first) retirement, though, of course, he had other things going on as well.
ACTQuote Reply
Between the Cubs fucking me out of money for the game I can’t go to see on Thursday and a rehashing of the Maddux incident, I’m in a mood right now where I just want the Cubs to be wiped off the surface of the earth so they don’t waste any more of my time.
Aisle424Quote Reply
[quote name=ACT]Eh, having that all-time great pitching staff was pretty cool. Also Maddux got to go to the world series several times and win one.[/quote]Whoppity shit for him. I want to see the Cubs win. Selfish, maybe, but fucket.
binkyQuote Reply
[quote name=dylanj]so we signed Rock Shoulders for 3rd rnd money. Bud is gonna hate us.[/quote]
Where did you see this?
bubblesdachimpQuote Reply
http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/6847146/tim-lincecum-san-francisco-giants-challenging-fans-video-competition
This is an interesting contest idea, though I admit I do worry a bit about a person getting hit by a pitch.
ACTQuote Reply
[quote name=Aisle424]My understanding is that Vitters will make us long for Micah Hoffpauir.[/quote]
haha ok that was funny.
I would think if he put up lines along Trumbo this year his first year in the majors people wouldn’t be overly disappointed depending on how bad he ends up looking in the field.
ABQuote Reply
@BruceMiles2112 RT @PWSullivan:
Things the Cubs don’t do particularly well: Play baseball, forecast weather, provide reliable wireless in the press box.
WenningtonsGorillaCockQuote Reply
[quote name=WenningtonsGorillaCock]@BruceMiles2112 RT @PWSullivan:
Things the Cubs don’t do particularly well: Play baseball, forecast weather, provide reliable wireless in the press box.[/quote]BTW – this is true. I wrote down the wireless password during the season ticket holders day b/c my iPhone barely works at Wrigley thanks to AT&T. However, the Cubs wi-fi is nearly as terrible (dying laughing)
WenningtonsGorillaCockQuote Reply
[quote name=AB]haha ok that was funny.
I would think if he put up lines along Trumbo this year his first year in the majors people wouldn’t be overly disappointed depending on how bad he ends up looking in the field.[/quote]
Hoff in the minors:
At AA (2 years) .268/.362/.594/.956
Overall (9 years) .287/.347/.490/.837
Vitters:
At AA (this year) .261/.309/.430/.739
Overall (5 years) .277/.318/.441/.758
The guy has 64 walks in in 5 years and 1564 plate appearances. He isn’t going to be jack squat at the major league level other than MAYBE a pinch-power hitter off the bench, but he won’t stick around long enough to get the major league at-bats to get good at that role.
Aisle424Quote Reply
[quote name=WenningtonsGorillaCock]BTW – this is true. I wrote down the wireless password during the season ticket holders day b/c my iPhone barely works at Wrigley thanks to AT&T. However, the Cubs wi-fi is nearly as terrible (dying laughing)[/quote]
Yep. Me too.
Aisle424Quote Reply
[quote name=Chris Dickerson]So you think they should re-sign him then?
I guess I don’t understand this. Are you thinking that when the cubs are 10-10 that Ramirez is struggling because the Cubs aren’t out of it yet? Do you have any explanation for his early season performances in seasons previous to the last 2? Are you saying he just now has begun wilting under the harsh sun of not being mathematically eliminated yet in April.
How does this figure into Josh Vitters’ ‘questionable’ makeup? Are you saying that Vitters too can’t hack the pressure of a AA pennant race, or are you eluding to the general concept of Vitters’ low walk ratio?[/quote]
Chris-
Good points. It’s not that there’s a lot of pressure in early May, o course. It’s that that’s when you should start putting things together and making some runs. The fact that Ramirez sucked so bad (sucked so hard? sucked so much?) was one of the primary reasons they were in 5th place on May 15. (It wasn’t the only reason, of course.)
But now, there is clearly NO pressure. None. And now is when he’s very dangerous at the plate. So it seems that he’s simply not someone you can count on to be a strong contributor to a competitive team. Maybe if you had stars in the corner outfield positions and first you could live with him being your fourth-best player. But it seems clear to me that he’s not up to being the lead dog.
As for Vitters, what I meant was that all of this would be moot if he looked more promising as Ramirez’s replacement. But not many project Vitters for stardom, if even a solid career. So now we’re in the awkward position of trying to figure out what to do with A-Ram because yet another first-rounder is a disappointment.
Steve SwisherQuote Reply
[quote name=Aisle424]Yep. Me too.[/quote]Are there any stadiums that offer free wi-fi? Seems like an easy branding opportunity for some company to offer, and something fans would actually enjoy using. I know, people should be watching the game, etc. etc., but it would still be very useful.
WenningtonsGorillaCockQuote Reply
[quote name=adnielsen]Hey mb, are you going to post the results of the top prospects poll? I’m curious to see if Vitters made the top 10.[/quote]Yeah, I’m going to post it. I’m pretty sure Vitters is in the top 10, but much closer to 10 than 5. I’ll see if I can get that posted tomorrow.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=ACT]Eh, having that all-time great pitching staff was pretty cool. Also Maddux got to go to the world series several times and win one.[/quote]Yeah, that’s not something that happened in Chicago. Still, the Cubs pulling that offer has to be among the top three or four dumbest things the Cubs organization has ever done.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=bubblesdachimp]Where did you see this?[/quote]
do a google news search for Rock Shoulders
dylanjQuote Reply
[quote name=Aisle424]My understanding is that Vitters will make us long for Micah Hoffpauir.[/quote]And Sam Fuld.
And Brad Snyder.
And Brooks Kieschnick.
And Doug Dascenzo.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=dylanj]do a google news search for Rock Shoulders[/quote]It looks like after they signed him Gretzky went from “signed” to probably not signing. I have to wonder what the fuck they’re going to do with all these 1st basemen. They already signed that one dude (Hoilman or whatever his name is). Now they have Shoulders. Then there’s Gretzky and Vogelbach.
The Cubs must think the DH is coming to the NL.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=Aisle424]Hoff in the minors:
At AA (2 years) .268/.362/.594/.956
Overall (9 years) .287/.347/.490/.837
Vitters:
At AA (this year) .261/.309/.430/.739
Overall (5 years) .277/.318/.441/.758
The guy has 64 walks in in 5 years and 1564 plate appearances. He isn’t going to be jack squat at the major league level other than MAYBE a pinch-power hitter off the bench, but he won’t stick around long enough to get the major league at-bats to get good at that role.[/quote]/slow clap
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Steve Swisher]Chris-
Good points. It’s not that there’s a lot of pressure in early May, o course. It’s that that’s when you should start putting things together and making some runs. The fact that Ramirez sucked so bad (sucked so hard? sucked so much?) was one of the primary reasons they were in 5th place on May 15. (It wasn’t the only reason, of course.)
But now, there is clearly NO pressure. None. And now is when he’s very dangerous at the plate. So it seems that he’s simply not someone you can count on to be a strong contributor to a competitive team. Maybe if you had stars in the corner outfield positions and first you could live with him being your fourth-best player. But it seems clear to me that he’s not up to being the lead dog.
As for Vitters, what I meant was that all of this would be moot if he looked more promising as Ramirez’s replacement. But not many project Vitters for stardom, if even a solid career. So now we’re in the awkward position of trying to figure out what to do with A-Ram because yet another first-rounder is a disappointment.[/quote]For what it’s worth, Ramirez’s production at the end of last season was odd. He was walking less, striking out more and despite that and I’m pretty sure there was something else he still managed to be productive. It was both a good sign to see him being productive, but also something that made me cautious when it came to expectations this year.
There’s also the shoulder injury.
All that said, it wouldn’t surprise me if what you’ve said in this thread is the general consensus among GMs in the game. I disagree with it. but I could easily see them looking at what Ramirez has done and noticing that he’s hit well when the Cubs have sucked.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=Aisle424]Hoff in the minors:
At AA (2 years) .268/.362/.594/.956
Overall (9 years) .287/.347/.490/.837
Vitters:
At AA (this year) .261/.309/.430/.739
Overall (5 years) .277/.318/.441/.758
The guy has 64 walks in in 5 years and 1564 plate appearances. He isn’t going to be jack squat at the major league level other than MAYBE a pinch-power hitter off the bench, but he won’t stick around long enough to get the major league at-bats to get good at that role.[/quote]Then factor in that he’s played a lot at 1st base this season so that’s where the Cubs see his future. His odds of succeeding at the big league level aren’t much higher than they are for you.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=Aisle424]That off-season made me physically ill. I understand the Dawson thing, but Maddux being shown the gate was unconscionable. Then it was compounded by their replacements being Candy fucking Maldonado and the wrong Guzman.[/quote]This is the organization that later replaced Randy Myers with Rodney Myers.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=mb21]Then factor in that he’s played a lot at 1st base this season so that’s where the Cubs see his future. His odds of succeeding at the big league level aren’t much higher than they are for you.[/quote]
Aisle424Quote Reply
[quote name=WenningtonsGorillaCock]Are there any stadiums that offer free wi-fi? Seems like an easy branding opportunity for some company to offer, and something fans would actually enjoy using. I know, people should be watching the game, etc. etc., but it would still be very useful.[/quote]
I don’t know. Usually my 3G is good enough and I don’t hunt for wi-fi, but that coverage blows at Wrigley too for some reason. I’ve heard it’s OK on the left field side, but I’m more on the right field side.
Aisle424Quote Reply
[quote name=mb21]It looks like after they signed him Gretzky went from “signed” to probably not signing. I have to wonder what the fuck they’re going to do with all these 1st basemen. They already signed that one dude (Hoilman or whatever his name is). Now they have Shoulders. Then there’s Gretzky and Vogelbach.
The Cubs must think the DH is coming to the NL.[/quote]Or they expect Bud will contract the OF to spice up the game.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=mb21]This is the organization that later replaced Randy Myers with Rodney Myers.[/quote]And tried to pretend that they hadn’t.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
Vitters keeps getting rated as a top prospect, certainly in the scouting reports and “top” lists I’ve seen. Do you have any thoughts on why there’s such a discrepancy between his actual output and production and the scouts who keep continuously rating him so highly?
If I had to speculate, I’d imagine it’d probably be a combination of: the relative weakness of the Cubs system, scouts inability to accept the shortcomings of a highly touted prospect, and scouts lack of concern regarding on-base-skills in favor of batting average. Thoughts?
ZappBranniganQuote Reply
[quote name=ZappBrannigan]
If I had to speculate, I’d imagine it’d probably be a combination of: the relative weakness of the Cubs system, scouts inability to accept the shortcomings of a highly touted prospect, and scouts lack of concern regarding on-base-skills in favor of batting average. Thoughts?[/quote]That and then the whole thing from Moneyball – he “looks” like a stud ballplayer, and has a really good looking swing.
The WreckardQuote Reply
[quote name=mb21]It looks like after they signed him Gretzky went from “signed” to probably not signing. I have to wonder what the fuck they’re going to do with all these 1st basemen. They already signed that one dude (Hoilman or whatever his name is). Now they have Shoulders. Then there’s Gretzky and Vogelbach.
The Cubs must think the DH is coming to the NL.[/quote]Trade bait?
binkyQuote Reply
[quote name=mb21]
All that said, it wouldn’t surprise me if what you’ve said in this thread is the general consensus among GMs in the game. I disagree with it. but I could easily see them looking at what Ramirez has done and noticing that he’s hit well when the Cubs have sucked.[/quote]
What do you disagree with? Not trying to be confrontational, more curious. It seems to me the numbers speak for themselves, but maybe I’m missing something.
Steve SwisherQuote Reply
[quote name=Steve Swisher]What do you disagree with? Not trying to be confrontational, more curious. It seems to me the numbers speak for themselves, but maybe I’m missing something.[/quote]Nothing in Ramirez’ numbers speaks to his intentions. Nothing. To say otherwise is simply to conflate correlation with causation.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=The Wreckard]That and then the whole thing from Moneyball – he “looks” like a stud ballplayer, and has a really good looking swing.[/quote]The Cubs don’t play baseball with a computer.
binkyQuote Reply
I kinda like rock more than trevor
bubblesdachimpQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]Nothing in Ramirez’ numbers speaks to his intentions. Nothing. To say otherwise is simply to conflate correlation with causation.[/quote]Yeah. He plays better lately when the weather is warmer. That could be because his shoulder is stiffer in the cold or something. It could be because he needs a little more time to get into a groove with age. Could be a million things. To pick one and declare it the truth is ludicrous.
binkyQuote Reply
If the Cubs were tearing it up this year after a mediocre start, everyone would be saying how Ramirez has upped his game b/c we’re in the thick (like in 2007).
binkyQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]Nothing in Ramirez’ numbers speaks to his intentions. Nothing. To say otherwise is simply to conflate correlation with causation.[/quote]
I don’t know that “intentions” is the right word. I’m saying there’s a correlation between his hitting when the games have more meaning compared to when they don’t. I’m not going to dive so deeply into the numbers to find how he was hitting during, say, the pennant race of ’07. But to me, you can look at this season, and last season, and his two most recent playoff appearances, and I think it’s fair to say he doesn’t rise to the occasion.
Steve SwisherQuote Reply
[quote name=josh]Yeah. He plays better lately when the weather is warmer. That could be because his shoulder is stiffer in the cold or something. It could be because he needs a little more time to get into a groove with age. Could be a million things. To pick one and declare it the truth is ludicrous.[/quote]
Is it ludicrous that he batted .000 and .182 in two playoff series? I don’t remember it being that chilly then.
Steve SwisherQuote Reply
Aramis was just fine in 2005 and 2006 when the Cubs were way out of it.
ACTQuote Reply
OK. I misread that. But I’m not convinced there is a pattern, he was remarkably consistent for several years.
ACTQuote Reply
Aramis was basically the same from 2004-2008 despite extremely different positions in the standings.
ACTQuote Reply
[quote name=Steve Swisher]What do you disagree with? Not trying to be confrontational, more curious. It seems to me the numbers speak for themselves, but maybe I’m missing something.[/quote]
I don’t agree with the argument that Ramirez only produces when the Cubs suck. I actually think the numbers prove otherwise. When making arguments about the importance of stats, you’re using the equivalent of half a season when combining the early part of this year and last year, but we have many other seasons to look at. Besides, monthly splits are mostly just due to random variance and little else.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=Steve Swisher]Is it ludicrous that he batted .000 and .182 in two playoff series? I don’t remember it being that chilly then.[/quote]That’s just a total of 6 games, though. It’s a full week in the MLB season. You know as well as anyone else what type of production you can expect from a hitter on a weekly basis.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=Steve Swisher]Is it ludicrous that he batted .000 and .182 in two playoff series? I don’t remember it being that chilly then.[/quote]Small sample size. This “rise to the occasion” business could just as easily be characterized as “was unlucky for three days out of the season.”
binkyQuote Reply
[quote name=Steve Swisher]I don’t know that “intentions” is the right word. I’m saying there’s a correlation between his hitting when the games have more meaning compared to when they don’t. I’m not going to dive so deeply into the numbers to find how he was hitting during, say, the pennant race of ’07. But to me, you can look at this season, and last season, and his two most recent playoff appearances, and I think it’s fair to say he doesn’t rise to the occasion.[/quote]I think it’s patently unfiar, because all that exist are correlative facts. The causal inference you’re drawing is post hoc propter hoc, pure and simple, and fallaciously so.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=josh]Small sample size. This “rise to the occasion” business could just as easily be characterized as “was unlucky for three days out of the season.”[/quote]Exactly. Pujols got off to a bad start this season. Even the greatest player in baseball has bad months. It’s just one of those things. It’s baseball and those things happen.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=Steve Swisher]I don’t know that “intentions” is the right word. I’m saying there’s a correlation between his hitting when the games have more meaning compared to when they don’t. I’m not going to dive so deeply into the numbers to find how he was hitting during, say, the pennant race of ’07. But to me, you can look at this season, and last season, and his two most recent playoff appearances, and I think it’s fair to say he doesn’t rise to the occasion.[/quote]
But there are other factors than just “the Cubs aren’t screwed in the standings” and “yes they are screwed.” His shoulder could be a major factor. His career splits suggest he is a typical slow starter.
Yet in 2007 and 2008 when the Cubs had the most pressure on them to be competitive out of the gate, he started off really well. So if he is simply someone who shies away from big moments or pressure, one would think he wouldn’t have performed well at that time.
He also slugged and OPSed at a higher rate for the Cubs in 2003 when he was plopped into the middle of a tense pennant race than he did for the stress-less Pirates.
All of this could be nothing more than coincidental slumping at an inopportune time.
So I have a hard time saying it is “fair” to criticize him for not being able to focus, or not caring, or however you want to describe something where there is plenty of evidence throughout his career that indicates that may not be true.
Aisle424Quote Reply
[quote name=ZappBrannigan]Vitters keeps getting rated as a top prospect, certainly in the scouting reports and “top” lists I’ve seen. Do you have any thoughts on why there’s such a discrepancy between his actual output and production and the scouts who keep continuously rating him so highly?
If I had to speculate, I’d imagine it’d probably be a combination of: the relative weakness of the Cubs system, scouts inability to accept the shortcomings of a highly touted prospect, and scouts lack of concern regarding on-base-skills in favor of batting average. Thoughts?[/quote]
He’s only 21 years old, making him young for his league, and despite virtually no on-base skills, is putting up an above-average OPS. For reference, Hoffpauir first played in AA at 24.
GWQuote Reply
Steve, I guess to really figure this out you first have to explain the difference between years prior to 2010 and since? Ramirez hit well those years before that and then hasn’t hit well to begin the season since. Ramirez clearly performed well in the early going prior to 2010, but hasn’t since. Did he suddenly become a different person in terms of his mental state? What caused the difference? If one exists, there must be a cause. The more likely answer is that it’s just luck. In previous seasons he surely had poor months, but they went unnoticed because they weren’t at the beginning or end of the season.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=GW]He’s only 21 years old, making him young for his league, and despite virtually no on-base skills, is putting up an above-average OPS. For reference, Hoffpauir first played in AA at 24.[/quote]
He also has what scouts have said is one of the best right-handed swings they’ve seen. He hits for some power, too.
I think he’s wildly overrated, but there are valid reasons he’s so high.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=mb21]He also has what scouts have said is one of the best right-handed swings they’ve seen. He hits for some power, too.
I think he’s wildly overrated, but there are valid reasons he’s so high.[/quote]I think Vitters is the kind of player people love to project, like Josh Kroeger, or Austin Kearns, and I think their shortcomings tend to get glossed in those projections.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
Aramis’ demeanor doesn’t help him at all with fans who want to find a “reason” for a guy they think should be way better than he actually performs. He does jog to first on what are usually obvious outs. He never throws stuff, slams his bat, or runs into a brick wall for a ball that is three rows deep into the stands. He has natural self-preservation instincts, and fans want to call that lazy because he isn’t Reed Johnson.
The thing is, Reed Johnson gets hurt an awful lot, so does Aaron Rowand, so do lots of guys that treat their bodies like tackling dummies out on the field. Nobody cares if Reed gets hurt because, frankly, without the maximum amount of effort, he probably isn’t good enough to waste a roster spot.
But Aramis Ramirez is a guy with tremendous talent that you don’t waste by bithing at him to sprint down to first on every routine pop-up because of the .0000001% chance it gets dropped. In fact, I would not be surprised if he was told by coaches to be careful not to unnecessarily hurt himself.
none of us can really know what motivates Aramis at any given time besides Aramis.
Aisle424Quote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]I think Vitters is the kind of player people love to project, like Josh Kroeger, or Austin Kearns, and I think their shortcomings tend to get glossed in those projections.[/quote]With a wave of the “he’ll learn that stuff” hand.
binkyQuote Reply
[quote name=Aisle424]
But Aramis Ramirez is a guy with tremendous talent that you don’t waste by bithing at him to sprint down to first on every routine pop-up because of the .0000001% chance it gets dropped. In fact, I would not be surprised if he was told by coaches to be careful not to unnecessarily hurt himself.
none of us can really know what motivates Aramis at any given time besides Aramis.[/quote]He’s a laid back guy. It seems like he’s been a little gunshy on defense this year, but his numbers are roughly the same as they have been in his career. I think guys like Bob Brenly sell this storyline that he’s lazy, and you hear it so much you forget it’s just one guy’s opinion.
binkyQuote Reply
[quote name=josh]He’s a laid back guy. It seems like he’s been a little gunshy on defense this year, but his numbers are roughly the same as they have been in his career. I think guys like Bob Brenly sell this storyline that he’s lazy, and you hear it so much you forget it’s just one guy’s opinion.[/quote]
It’s more than just Brenly. They say he never dives, but he’s been diving around at balls this year as much as anyone.
Does he have the greatest range in the world? no. But that is not a function of effort, but guys like Brenly want to make it that way for some reason and then every fan in the world hates one of the best players on the Cubs because the rest of the team sucks and they lose.
Aisle424Quote Reply
I’m willing to buy that Ramirez is a little more lazy than your average player. Every single announcer that I listen to hints at the same thing. He hasn’t run out the deep flies like he should. I can buy that. At the same time, it’s unfair to not give him credit for all the work he did on his defense after joining the team. In the end, what you have is a difference of almost nothing and not worth complaining about as much as the media and fans do. I don’t buy that he has a button he turns on and off and only performs when the button is on. I don’t think hitting baseballs is like that. It’s a reaction and I’ve never heard anyone say that Ramirez doesn’t get his hacks in before the game or do whatever drills it is the team goes through.
But in all honesty, I don’t care about his past production. I care about whether or not the Cubs should retain him and at what cost. 3/24 I think is the most I’d go. I know Ramirez’s camp is going to point to Adrian Beltre last year, but Beltre’s 2010 was better than any season Ramirez has ever had. Beltre is the far superior defender and this is known throughout the game. Scott Rolen is a far better comp. I find it hard to believe the Cubs are going to exercise that option. I don’t know how they can afford to do that and still attempt to contend as they want to do.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=mb21]I’m willing to buy that Ramirez is a little more lazy than your average player. Every single announcer that I listen to hints at the same thing. He hasn’t run out the deep flies like he should. I can buy that. At the same time, it’s unfair to not give him credit for all the work he did on his defense after joining the team. In the end, what you have is a difference of almost nothing and not worth complaining about as much as the media and fans do. I don’t buy that he has a button he turns on and off and only performs when the button is on. I don’t think hitting baseballs is like that. It’s a reaction and I’ve never heard anyone say that Ramirez doesn’t get his hacks in before the game or do whatever drills it is the team goes through.
But in all honesty, I don’t care about his past production. I care about whether or not the Cubs should retain him and at what cost. 3/24 I think is the most I’d go. I know Ramirez’s camp is going to point to Adrian Beltre last year, but Beltre’s 2010 was better than any season Ramirez has ever had. Beltre is the far superior defender and this is known throughout the game. Scott Rolen is a far better comp. I find it hard to believe the Cubs are going to exercise that option. I don’t know how they can afford to do that and still attempt to contend as they want to do.[/quote]What do you think about the likelihood Hendry trying to avoid both the extension and arb by extending Ramriez?
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
Exactly, and any inferences we draw from his stats that pretend towards this type of knowledge say a lot more about us than they do about Ramirez.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Aisle424]It’s more than just Brenly. They say he never dives, but he’s been diving around at balls this year as much as anyone.
Does he have the greatest range in the world? no. But that is not a function of effort, but guys like Brenly want to make it that way for some reason and then every fan in the world hates one of the best players on the Cubs because the rest of the team sucks and they lose.[/quote]
I never meant to imply that he’s lazy. I have seen him dive for balls. I’ve also, however, seen him jog to first on balls that he thinks are going to be homers and they’re not, and it causes trouble. That drives me nuts.
I think mb21’s post (#98) is probably the most accurate, that it’s might well be luck that he’s sucked at the beginning of the last two seasons. But when you combine that with his abysmal play in the past two post-seasons, I see a pattern. Others don’t. That’s fine. I might well be wrong.
It might simply be frustration talking. Tell me it’s not frustrating to see him belting homer after home with the team 16 games out of first when he hit two in the first two months of the season.
I’d like to think I’m not one of those Brenly-esque fans who worships the gritty Ecksteins and Theriots of the world. But it’s hard to see a player who’s played so well before do nothing when the team has a chance, then turn it on when the games are irrelevant.
I know we like to make fun of the jags at BCB (dying laughing) for, you know, worshipping Ryan Theriot. But there’s a place for emotion here too, right? It doesn’t have to just be slavish devotion to numbers.
Lastly, any argument that includes the words “post hoc propter hoc, pure and simple, and fallaciously so” sounds tool-ish.
Steve SwisherQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]What do you think about the likelihood Hendry trying to avoid both the extension and arb by extending Ramriez?[/quote]If the Cubs decline the option there’s a 0% chance arbitration is offered and for good reason. If they were interested in keeping him, they’d just exercise the option. If they decline and offer arbitration they’re paying him more than they’d have paid him if they just exercised the option.
My guess is they decline the option and quickly work out a 2-3 year extension. I just don’t see how they can exercise the option and add enough talent to the team to even be close to contenders.
mb21Quote Reply
No, definitely not. We’re fans and whether we want to admit it, we’re not making decisions on whether to root for this team based on the probability of them winning. If we were, there’s be no Cubs fans. (dying laughing)
mb21Quote Reply
As does any argument that pretends towards knowledge of a person’s motivations and intentions from a selectively chosen raw data set.
In other words, ask a stupid question, get a stupid answer.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=mb21]No, definitely not. We’re fans and whether we want to admit it, we’re not making decisions on whether to root for this team based on the probability of them winning. If we were, there’s be no Cubs fans. (dying laughing)[/quote](dying laughing), certainly not here. Although we’re certainly not new to being characterized as such.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
Now you’re just shifting the goalposts. Of course there’s a place for emotion. But there’s a difference in saying that emotion is a part of the game and pretending that one can accurately interpret the emotional state of Player X based on some set of raw data with selective endpoints.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
I get emotional about games and players, but I try to separate venting steam from analysis of a player and his usefulness to the team. I’m obviously not above a few Koyie Hill jokes when the reality is that his severed fingers contain more baseball talent than I ever did at my physical peak.
I don’t want to speak for everyone here, but I get defensive when it comes to slandering players as lazy or selfish because that is the typical reaction and the easy reaction. I’d like to think that media guys would be able to take a scene that any dipstick who likes baseball can see and paint it using a little perspective and provide information that not every Joe Schmoe will know or bother to look up in their analysis. But instead they just parrot what the beer-swilling Chad in the crowd is saying because they don’t seem to want to have these kinds of discussions. It seems they would rather post a story and have that be the final word, unless the reaction is “yeah… what he said!!”
Again, that is probably unfair of me to say about writers I don’t know personally, so again, I can’t know for sure what, say, Paul Sullivan’s motives are. But since he attacks players’ motivations in writing and they never say jack about him in any public forum, I don’t feel as bad giving him a dose of his own medicine by jumping to conclusions from the evidence presented in his writings. I then also feel compelled to back up my analysis with numbers, since his megaphone is louder than mine.
Aisle424Quote Reply
The draft standings are updated, by the way.
Aisle424Quote Reply
[quote name=Aisle424]The draft standings are updated, by the way.[/quote]
Cubs dangerously close to dropping out of the top 5. Not that it really matters I guess since indications are the following draft class might suck, relatively speaking.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=Rice Cube]Cubs dangerously close to dropping out of the top 5. Not that it really matters I guess since indications are the following draft class might suck, relatively speaking.[/quote]They only turn it on when the pressure is off.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
Speaking of Aramis, looks like he has a back issue so he can’t play tonight.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=Rice Cube]Speaking of Aramis, looks like he has a back issue so he can’t play tonight.[/quote]Baker or DeWitt in?
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
That seems like a stupid and unnecessary change for a team that could use butts in seats.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
DeWitt. Methinks the pitching matchup was the same as last night so it’s Wang on the mound (RHP)…although why DeWitt is batting third beats the hell out of me.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]Baker or DeWitt in?[/quote] Witty
BerseliusQuote Reply
Awesome!
http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/08/09/pitch-like-tim-lincecum-then-maybe-you-can-hit-off-him-too/
*working on video*
Rice CubeQuote Reply
DeWitt is hitting 3rd? WTF?
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
I don’t care anymore about fans saying things about players. What bothers me is the media. It’s one thing for an announcer of an opposing team to go off on Ramirez after he literally jogs down the line on a grounder hit in the hole. They’re emotional, too, so that’s understandable. It’s something entirely different when a journalist pens an article, rereads it, reads it again, and then sends it to the editor to be published. That is what irritates me and the Cubs beat writers are horrible at it. I’ll give Carrie Muskat a pass because she actually does her job. MIles is better than Gordo and Sullivan, but that’s not saying much.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=mb21]I don’t care anymore about fans saying things about players. What bothers me is the media. It’s one thing for an announcer of an opposing team to go off on Ramirez after he literally jogs down the line on a grounder hit in the hole. They’re emotional, too, so that’s understandable. It’s something entirely different when a journalist pens an article, rereads it, reads it again, and then sends it to the editor to be published. That is what irritates me and the Cubs beat writers are horrible at it. I’ll give Carrie Muskat a pass because she actually does her job. MIles is better than Gordo and Sullivan, but that’s not saying much.[/quote]Same goes for Brenly, who basically parrots what gets written about most of the players.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]DeWitt is hitting 3rd? WTF?[/quote]
I think it was very easy to just erase “Ramirez” and pencil in “DeWitt” in the lineup instead of erasing a bunch of other names and rewriting it all.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
Thom Brennaman going off on Ramirez on that play was one of the funniest things I’d heard. He let it fucking rip and I found myself not even caring. It was a horrible decision on Ramirez’s part to not run that ball out. I know what 424 is saying about the easy ones and I completely agree, but if there’s a chance you can beat it, run your ass off. This obviously ignores any chance of an injury to a leg, which I don’t think Ramirez had.
I think Brennaman wasn’t so much even pointing out that he loafed his way to 1st, but that he was hitting terribly so far and couldn’t even be bothered to run to 1st on a play he may have gotten a base hit.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]Same goes for Brenly, who basically parrots what gets written about most of the players.[/quote]True, but even I can give him a little leeway these days. He’s talking a lot and doesn’t have the benefit of saying some things after thinking them through. That’s not to give him a pass on everything because I think he’s a horrible announcer. But Paul Sullivan puts thought into the bullshit he writes. SEriously. Think about that for a moment. He puts effort into writing the bullshit he does about the ballplayers. It’s remarkable.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=mb21]Thom Brennaman going off on Ramirez on that play was one of the funniest things I’d heard. He let it fucking rip and I found myself not even caring. It was a horrible decision on Ramirez’s part to not run that ball out. I know what 424 is saying about the easy ones and I completely agree, but if there’s a chance you can beat it, run your ass off. This obviously ignores any chance of an injury to a leg, which I don’t think Ramirez had.
I think Brennaman wasn’t so much even pointing out that he loafed his way to 1st, but that he was hitting terribly so far and couldn’t even be bothered to run to 1st on a play he may have gotten a base hit.[/quote]The two Brennaman’s are terrible with over-moralizing the game.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=mb21]True, but even I can give him a little leeway these days. He’s talking a lot and doesn’t have the benefit of saying some things after thinking them through. That’s not to give him a pass on everything because I think he’s a horrible announcer. But Paul Sullivan puts thought into the bullshit he writes. SEriously. Think about that for a moment. He puts effort into writing the bullshit he does about the ballplayers. It’s remarkable.[/quote]Yeah, it’s not fun to think the drivel he prints is the result of the thought processes of an adult human.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]Yeah, it’s not fun to think the drivel he prints is the result of the thought processes of an adult human.[/quote]
I assume at least some of the beat writers get to watch the games they write recaps for at the end, but sometimes I wonder if they’re actually watching or if they’re taking a nap and then just writing stuff based on the box score afterwards.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=Rice Cube]I assume at least some of the beat writers get to watch the games they write recaps for at the end, but sometimes I wonder if they’re actually watching or if they’re taking a nap and then just writing stuff based on the box score afterwards.[/quote]
I will say that when I can actually see Sullivan in the press box, he appears to be watching. However, I can’t always see him, and maybe I only see him when he is actually sitting up and paying attention.
I thought I knew where Gordo sat, but I don’t see him as often. Muskat is way up in the box so I rarely see her unless she is standing up. I’ve never seen Miles up there, but I only recently ever knew what he looked like. I don’t know where his seat is.
Aisle424Quote Reply
[quote name=Rice Cube]I assume at least some of the beat writers get to watch the games they write recaps for at the end, but sometimes I wonder if they’re actually watching or if they’re taking a nap and then just writing stuff based on the box score afterwards.[/quote]Jim Rose is a sportcaster in Chicago for, IIRC, Ch. 7, and he is notorious for not watching games.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]Jim Rose is a sportcaster in Chicago for, IIRC, Ch. 7, and he is notorious for not watching games.[/quote]
I never see any of the TV guys in the box. I even saw Mariotti up there a couple of times and he was notorious for not going to games he wrote about, but the next time I see Mark Giangreco will be the first time.
Aisle424Quote Reply
Telander is probably there more than any other columnist.
Aisle424Quote Reply
[quote name=Aisle424]I never see any of the TV guys in the box. I even saw Mariotti up there a couple of times and he was notorious for not going to games he wrote about, but the next time I see Mark Giangreco will be the first time.[/quote]Yeah, they have to much to do, but Rose oftentimes gives sportscasts that show he has no idea what happened in the game.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Aisle424]Telander is probably there more than any other columnist.[/quote]Not that it shows in his hamfisted attempts to be Mitch Albom.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
I’m sure Sullivan is watching. He’s paid to watch baseball games. Who wouldn’t love that job? Most of us pay to watch the fucking things and Sullivan is getting paid to. What the fuck? I rarely read anything by him anymore, but he always seemed to pick one thing and then refer to it nonstop as if someone picking their nose on the bench makes them a bad teammate or something.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=Steve Swisher]I .
.But it’s hard to see a player who’s played so well before do nothing when the team has a chance, then turn it on when the games are irrelevant..[/quote]
What “chance”‘did this team ever have? A chance to win 78 games? Pitching hurt this team as much as anything early in the season. If you think games in June, July and August are irrelevant to players I’d say unequivocally that you are wrong. After April and May there was even more pressure on Aram to perform because he’s essentially in a walk year. You can’t say he didn’t perform early because of pressure and disregard his performance after his slow start when the pressure on him was actually greater.
melissaQuote Reply
I’m sure it’s not unique to Cubs fans but I hate the “I care more than the Players do” mindset. You think a guy who has been excellent at what he does suddenly doesn’t care if he’s bad? it’s also typical of fans to think a guy is just coasting until he decides to “flip a switch” in his head and decide he will be good again. I don’t even know how that is possible. I know players face mental and physical hurdles that can hamper performance but it’s just not fair to paint it as a conscious choice to be bad and not care.
melissaQuote Reply
[quote name=melissa]I’m sure it’s not unique to Cubs fans but I hate the “I care more than the Players do” mindset. You think a guy who has been excellent at what he does suddenly doesn’t care if he’s bad? it’s also typical of fans to think a guy is just coasting until he decides to “flip a switch” in his head and decide he will be good again. I don’t even know how that is possible. I know players face mental and physical hurdles that can hamper performance but it’s just not fair to paint it as a conscious choice to be bad and not care.[/quote]
Not to mention that as much as we might rip players here, I bet there are few, if any people here who could beat any one of the Cubs in a footrace, and as much as I tear up Campana for his arm, I bet mine is 10x worse. (dying laughing)
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]Not to mention that as much as we might rip players here, I bet there are few, if any people here who could beat any one of the Cubs in a footrace, and as much as I tear up Campana for his arm, I bet mine is 10x worse. (dying laughing)[/quote]
Somebody has to be able to take Geo in a foot race. Not me but someone almost anyone. (dying laughing).
melissaQuote Reply
[quote name=melissa]Somebody has to be able to take Geo in a foot race. Not me but someone almost anyone. (dying laughing).[/quote](dying laughing), I dunno
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
For dylan and the rest of you:
jimcallisBA Jim Callis
None. Believe those are both done & under wraps. @jdfisch: Does Rock shoulders signing affect vogelbach Gretzky signing? #cubs #mlbdraft
bubblesdachimpQuote Reply
and i assume dylan got answered too
jimcallisBA Jim Callis
Believe it’s done, just not officially announced. @Dylanj85: what happened with Trevor Gretzky ? Did that deal fall through? #cubs #mlbdraft
bubblesdachimpQuote Reply
well its like md said- that means we have a ton of 1B’s now. We need to release Rohan and maybe even Bour to make room
dylanjQuote Reply
[quote name=dylanj]well its like md said- that means we have a ton of 1B’s now. We need to release Rohan and maybe even Bour to make room[/quote]Maybe Wilken is just trying to frustrate Hendry’s 2B Dream Team plan.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
I like garza a lot
bubblesdachimpQuote Reply
[quote name=dylanj]well its like md said- that means we have a ton of 1B’s now. We need to release Rohan and maybe even Bour to make room[/quote]
Whats wrong with Rohan. He is having a solid year and plays LF i thought?
bubblesdachimpQuote Reply
<img src="http://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-G-suJlhOqLE/TkHPS9MgVeI/AAAAAAAABl8/EnMbGxY_k1E/s800/Alvin%252520agrees2.JPG
” alt=”” />
I win the internet. Of course, he deleted his agreement shortly after.
Aisle424Quote Reply
Brett Jackson with a leadoff single and a run scored
bubblesdachimpQuote Reply
he’s 25 fucking years old and in Peoria. He sucks
dylanjQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]Not to mention that as much as we might rip players here, I bet there are few, if any people here who could beat any one of the Cubs in a footrace, and as much as I tear up Campana for his arm, I bet mine is 10x worse. (dying laughing)[/quote]I think I’ve gotten pretty good at not tearing up the players the way some of you do. I’m sure I fail at saying something more appropriate at times, but over the last 2-3 years I’ve made an effort to not do so. It’s not easy either. Looking at how bad this team is and how bad some of the players are, it would be really easy to just rip them apart. I’m sure I’ve done so, but I do try not to. I don’t even get in on the Koyie Hill bashing. As ACT said, he’s not even the worst catcher in baseball. I have to remind myself that these are the best of the best. Sports is the only profession I can think of where the elite talent is belittled as much or as often as these guys are. You’re never going to hear someone say that a doctor in the top 1% of his profession sucks. But we (me too) say it all the time about athletes. It’s really odd.
Take Carlos Zambrano as an example. He’s not nearly as good as he once was, but even with his true talent now he’s still in the top half of all MLB starting pitchers. He’s still the elite of the elite among all baseball players. Yet for years people have talked shit about him. Just odd. (dying laughing)
mb21Quote Reply
I really don’t grasp why the Cubs changed the rain check policy. Seems like a unnecessarily assholish thing to do.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=dylanj]well its like md said- that means we have a ton of 1B’s now. We need to release Rohan and maybe even Bour to make room[/quote]And they’re all in the low minors. It’s really odd. It’s almost as if the Cubs think they’re going to be the team that moves to the AL if realignment happens.
If they can hit as advertised, I’m not going to complain. I’ll like looking at some numbers for once that don’t include a low .300 OBP or sub .400 slugging and finding some way to call this guy a prospect. Just not sure where they’re going to fit in.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]I really don’t grasp why the Cubs changed the rain check policy. Seems like a unnecessarily assholish thing to do.[/quote]What did they change?
mb21Quote Reply
(dying laughing), I just got spam for the guy who’s sitting on the @Berselius twitter account
BerseliusQuote Reply
[quote name=dylanj]he’s 25 fucking years old and in Peoria. He sucks[/quote]
He moved up to daytona and has been killing it since being there.. His numbers arent bad. and he is younger than me
bubblesdachimpQuote Reply
well Wayne’s kid is a project. He’s just 17 so I can imagine AZL this year and Boise next year at best. I would start Vogelbach in Peoria and Shoulders in Boise.
I’m glad we are getting some power in our system right now its Jackson or Reggie Golden’s supposed power
dylanjQuote Reply
[quote name=bubblesdachimp]He moved up to daytona and has been killing it since being there.. His numbers arent bad. and he is younger than me[/quote]
25 in daytona isnt good either
dylanjQuote Reply
[quote name=mb21]What did they change?[/quote]Sullivan reported today that rain checks can now only be used for the rescheduled game, of the game that was postponed. The previous policy was that rain check tickets could be used at any game at the same pricing level, for a seat in the same price range.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=mb21]I think I’ve gotten pretty good at not tearing up the players the way some of you do. [/quote]
(dying laughing). Glad you prefer to trash your fellow commenters as opposed to the players. (dying laughing).
melissaQuote Reply
[quote name=mb21]I think I’ve gotten pretty good at not tearing up the players the way some of you do. I’m sure I fail at saying something more appropriate at times, but over the last 2-3 years I’ve made an effort to not do so. It’s not easy either. Looking at how bad this team is and how bad some of the players are, it would be really easy to just rip them apart. I’m sure I’ve done so, but I do try not to. I don’t even get in on the Koyie Hill bashing. As ACT said, he’s not even the worst catcher in baseball. I have to remind myself that these are the best of the best. Sports is the only profession I can think of where the elite talent is belittled as much or as often as these guys are. You’re never going to hear someone say that a doctor in the top 1% of his profession sucks. But we (me too) say it all the time about athletes. It’s really odd.
Take Carlos Zambrano as an example. He’s not nearly as good as he once was, but even with his true talent now he’s still in the top half of all MLB starting pitchers. He’s still the elite of the elite among all baseball players. Yet for years people have talked shit about him. Just odd. (dying laughing)[/quote]
There are a few morons out there who Played College Ball who think they could play MLB, but when most people say a player sucks they’re talking about relative to average or some platonic ideal of how good a MLB player should be. It doesn’t really bother me.
BerseliusQuote Reply
[quote name=bubblesdachimp]He moved up to daytona and has been killing it since being there.. His numbers arent bad. and he is younger than me[/quote]Bobby Scales is younger than me.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=dylanj]well Wayne’s kid is a project. He’s just 17 so I can imagine AZL this year and Boise next year at best. I would start Vogelbach in Peoria and Shoulders in Boise.
I’m glad we are getting some power in our system right now its Jackson or Reggie Golden’s supposed power[/quote]
How old are the guys in AZL? My impression was that most of the 17-18 year old prospects just spend time in the nebulous instructional camp black hole.
BerseliusQuote Reply
AZL kids are usually 17-19
dylanjQuote Reply
[quote name=Berselius]There are a few morons out there who Played College Ball who think they could play MLB, but when most people say a player sucks they’re talking about relative to average or some platonic ideal of how good a MLB player should be. It doesn’t really bother me.[/quote]It doesn’t bother me, but there are more intelligent ways to express your feelings about a player than to say he sucks. I try to do that, but know I don’t always do it and probably never will. I am much better than I was a few years ago.
If I go to a blog and start reading and come across this guy sucks, this guy sucks, I move on. Obviously this person is making no effort whatsoever to tell me what’s wrong with the particular player. They’re not making an argument that one can discuss. They’re just talking to themselves.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=mb21]Bobby Scales is younger than me.[/quote]
I thought you were like 50 years old
(dying laughing)
(dying laughing)
But seriously i am 25 so when i see people born after me i tend to think they are young since i consider myself to be young
bubblesdachimpQuote Reply
I think Gretzky might get a late season call up to Boise next year, but he’ll just be 18 so my guess is they wait another year. He reportedly has a lot of flaws in his swing and isn’t a good fielder so he could use some work.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=bubblesdachimp]I thought you were like 50 years old
(dying laughing)
(dying laughing)
But seriously i am 25 so when i see people born after me i tend to think they are young since i consider myself to be young[/quote]I’m 36. I don’t consider any 25 year old baseball player to be young. 25 in the low minors is old. Josh Vitters is 21 and at AA for more than a season. He’s young for his level, but 25 is way too old for the low minors.
mb21Quote Reply
Yea yall are probably right. I jsut dont see a reason to release rohan when he is performing and there is no one to push him out of that LF spot
bubblesdachimpQuote Reply
Wow, just checked the box score. 5 K for Garza through 2 innings
BerseliusQuote Reply
[quote name=bubblesdachimp]Yea yall are probably right. I jsut dont see a reason to release rohan when he is performing and there is no one to push him out of that LF spot[/quote]Agreed. It’s not like one of these guys is going to suddenly show up in Daytona. I doubt we see Shoulders, Gretzky or Vogelbach at High A before the end of 2013.
mb21Quote Reply
I think I’m the old man of the 4 of us. I’m enjoying the last year of my 30s.
Aisle424Quote Reply
[quote name=Aisle424]I think I’m the old man of the 4 of us. I’m enjoying the last year of my 30s.[/quote]
I’m the oldest at heart (dying laughing)
BerseliusQuote Reply
[quote name=Aisle424]I think I’m the old man of the 4 of us. I’m enjoying the last year of my 30s.[/quote]I think Berselius is the baby.
mb21Quote Reply
There were several people who read this site who were 50 or older according to the survey we ran.
mb21Quote Reply
I recently enjoyed my 11th birthday party.
BerseliusQuote Reply
[quote name=Berselius]I recently enjoyed my 11th birthday party.[/quote]Did you have a birthday party?
mb21Quote Reply
Nevermind. I’m an idiot. (dying laughing)
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=Berselius]I recently enjoyed my 11th birthday party.[/quote]
(dying laughing). I hope you were never in ACB’s ghey secks chat room.
melissaQuote Reply
I dont nkow if Rocky can play the OF but there is no way it seems Gretzky or Holiman can…
Maybe Vogelbach (dying laughing) (dying laughing)
I mean how much worse could he be than Alonso or Dunn?
bubblesdachimpQuote Reply
[quote name=melissa](dying laughing). I hope you were never in ACB’s ghey secks chat room.[/quote]That’s how he celebrated his 8th birthday.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=bubblesdachimp]I dont nkow if Rocky can play the OF but there is no way it seems Gretzky or Holiman can…
Maybe Vogelbach (dying laughing) (dying laughing)
I mean how much worse could he be than Alonso or Dunn?[/quote]If you’re going to put Vogelbach in LF you may as well put in CF or SS and just sit back and enjoy it.
mb21Quote Reply
Flaherty is really struggling in AAA..
If he isnt ready to play next year or the DJ or Vitters maybe you exercise the Ramirez option to hopefully go with Pujols/Fielder and see what happens
bubblesdachimpQuote Reply
(dying laughing). Mega-Close-up shot of Alvin in his McCartney concert T. (dying laughing).
melissaQuote Reply
[quote name=mb21]If you’re going to put Vogelbach in LF you may as well put in CF or SS and just sit back and enjoy it.[/quote]
(dying laughing)
(dying laughing)
i just dont know how much worse certain people can be than dunn. Definitelty not advocating vogelbach to be clear.
I mean lets say the brewers put Fielder in LF.. Would he be worse defensively than Dunn?
bubblesdachimpQuote Reply
[quote name=mb21]That’s how he celebrated his 8th birthday.[/quote]
He’s quite the precocious youngster. (dying laughing)
melissaQuote Reply
[quote name=mb21]Agreed. It’s not like one of these guys is going to suddenly show up in Daytona. I doubt we see Shoulders, Gretzky or Vogelbach at High A before the end of 2013.[/quote]
vogelbach is an advanced bat imho. I could see him in Peoria next year
dylanjQuote Reply
[quote name=bubblesdachimp]Flaherty is really struggling in AAA..
If he isnt ready to play next year or the DJ or Vitters maybe you exercise the Ramirez option to hopefully go with Pujols/Fielder and see what happens[/quote]
You only exercise the option if you really think he’s going to be getting paid that much or more. That’s highly unlikely.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=melissa](dying laughing). Mega-Close-up shot of Alvin in his McCartney concert T. (dying laughing).[/quote]
Don’t laugh. That McCartney t-shirt is 6-0.
Aisle424Quote Reply
[quote name=Aisle424]Don’t laugh. That McCartney t-shirt is a picture of a human being[/quote].
BerseliusQuote Reply
[quote name=dylanj]vogelbach is an advanced bat imho. I could see him in Peoria next year[/quote]A little early to say whether his bat is advanced or not. He can hit long home runs, but that doesn’t mean he’s an advanced bat. He’s still young. Most teams don’t push high school draft picks up to High A in their first year.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=mb21]You only exercise the option if you really think he’s going to be getting paid that much or more. That’s highly unlikely.[/quote]
Yea or if you think that is the only way to keep him for one year without having to give him a multiyear deal…
I dont necesarrily think any one year contract is that bad.
I am also a chimp
bubblesdachimpQuote Reply
Oops. I read that as Daytona even though you said Peoria. I’d say there’s a chance he could get to Peoria late next year, but I wouldn’t expect it.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=bubblesdachimp]Yea or if you think that is the only way to keep him for one year without having to give him a multiyear deal…
I dont necesarrily think any one year contract is that bad.
I am also a chimp[/quote]If overpaying someone is the only way to keep them for one year you don’t keep them. Ramirez isn’t worth $16 million next year and the Cubs shouldn’t pay it. No other team is going to pay him $16 million next year so why should the Cubs?
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=mb21]If overpaying someone is the only way to keep them for one year you don’t keep them. Ramirez isn’t worth $16 million next year and the Cubs shouldn’t pay it. No other team is going to pay him $16 million next year so why should the Cubs?[/quote]
Because they have to.
Ha! I used a meme!
Are we getting no-hit for reals? At least Byrd got hit and Soto took a walk.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=Aisle424]Don’t laugh. That McCartney t-shirt is 6-0.[/quote]
I just hope he doesn’t run into some poor vendor on the street charging 50% less than he paid.
melissaQuote Reply
Garza has some crazy good velocity tonight. 95 mph consistently, changing speeds too. Cool.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=Rice Cube]Because they have to.
Ha! I used a meme!
Are we getting no-hit for reals? At least Byrd got hit and Soto took a walk.[/quote]
It would be so fitting if the Cubs got no-hit and Garza K’s 20 in this game (dying laughing)
BerseliusQuote Reply
[quote name=mb21]If overpaying someone is the only way to keep them for one year you don’t keep them. Ramirez isn’t worth $16 million next year and the Cubs shouldn’t pay it. No other team is going to pay him $16 million next year so why should the Cubs?[/quote]
That is an excellent point. i am jsut worried about what happens if Jimbo were to get in a bidding war and he decideds he needs aramis
bubblesdachimpQuote Reply
Edwin Jackson getting knocked around again.
/Not that surprised
BerseliusQuote Reply
[quote name=melissa](dying laughing). Glad you prefer to trash your fellow commenters as opposed to the players. (dying laughing).[/quote]Out of curiosity, who have I trashed? For some reason I think i said something to you when I should have said Cubs fans. I said as much after you called me out. I don’t believe what I said was trashing you because I said Cubs fans, which means me, too.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=bubblesdachimp]That is an excellent point. i am jsut worried about what happens if Jimbo were to get in a bidding war and he decideds he needs aramis[/quote]If he decides he absolutely needs Aramis at whatever cost he exercises the option. If he decides he can live without Aramis, which is basically what he said, then he declines the option and tries to work out a deal for less than the option. Aramis Ramirez isn’t going to make the 2012 team a contender. Hendry knows this and it’s why he said he might not be back next season.
I’m not too worried about a bidding war for someone of Ramirez’s caliber. The bidding war for Rolen amounted to $13 million over 2 years. it’s not like all the teams bidding for him are going to throw logic and rational thought out the window at the same time for a league average player one year removed from a horrible season.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]As does any argument that pretends towards knowledge of a person’s motivations and intentions from a selectively chosen raw data set.
In other words, ask a stupid question, get a stupid answer.[/quote]
Is that the same as “throw out a theory, get a douchebaggy, look-at-me-I-went-to-law-school pretentious collection of Latin words” response?
Steve SwisherQuote Reply
[quote name=mb21]Out of curiosity, who have I trashed? For some reason I think i said something to you when I should have said Cubs fans. I said as much after you called me out. I don’t believe what I said was trashing you because I said Cubs fans, which means me, too.[/quote]
First off, I was making a joke, it wasn’t about any previous discussion we’ve had. It was about your remark that I quoted where you pat yourself on the back for not tearing up players like “some of you do.”. I just thought it was funny that you were putting other people down for putting players down. It wasn’t any personal axe I have to grind.
melissaQuote Reply
Brett now 2-3 with a steal too
bubblesdachimpQuote Reply
[quote name=melissa]First off, I was making a joke, it wasn’t about any previous discussion we’ve had. It was about your remark that I quoted where you pat yourself on the back for not tearing up players like “some of you do.”. I just thought it was funny that you were putting other people down for putting players down. It wasn’t any personal axe I have to grind.[/quote]Poorly worded on my part. I didn’t mean to make it sound like I was patting myself on the back or putting anybody else down. It’s something that a lot of fans do as berselius pointed out. I certainly don’t have a problem with it as I later said. It’s just not something I want to do and I wrote a post about this on ACB awhile back. I don’t care what the rest of you do. I’m not judging anybody. We’re all fans.
I certainly don’t think I’m better than anybody else. I’m an alcoholic and a drug addict. I’ve done some awful things in my life and I would never think I’m better than anyone else because I’m not. Quite the opposite actually. I’m certain most of you are better than I am.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=mb21]If overpaying someone is the only way to keep them for one year you don’t keep them. Ramirez isn’t worth $16 million next year and the Cubs shouldn’t pay it. No other team is going to pay him $16 million next year so why should the Cubs?[/quote]L-logic? Is this a new strategy for the FO I’m unaware of?
binkyQuote Reply
I poop too much.
Aisle424Quote Reply
[quote name=josh]L-logic? Is this a new strategy for the FO I’m unaware of?[/quote](dying laughing) I just have to assume they can figure out that Ramirez isn’t worth $16 million. Who knows though?
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=Aisle424]I poop too much.[/quote]I’m definitely better than you.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=Aisle424]I poop too much.[/quote]
BerseliusQuote Reply
[quote name=mb21]I’m definitely better than you.[/quote]
At least I still work here.
Aisle424Quote Reply
[quote name=mb21]I’m definitely better than you.[/quote]
I think we can agree that all of us are better than Aisley. (dying laughing)
melissaQuote Reply
[quote name=Aisle424]At least I still work here.[/quote]Not if my corporate takeover works.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=melissa]I think we can agree that all of us are better than Aisley. (dying laughing)[/quote]
I feel like I’m in high school again.
Aisle424Quote Reply
[quote name=Steve Swisher]Is that the same as “throw out a theory, get a douchebaggy, look-at-me-I-went-to-law-school pretentious collection of Latin words” response?[/quote]
@Mercurial Outfielder: I apologize. A little too much drinky, long day, cranky wife. Not cool. Sorry.
Steve SwisherQuote Reply
I sometimes make fun of players, mostly out of frustration. I’m more annoyed with the front office and their by-golly attitude.
binkyQuote Reply
This game turned in a hurry.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=Aisle424]I feel like I’m in high school again.[/quote]
I bet it’s similar to the way Todd Ricketts felt when he tried to sell hot dogs.
melissaQuote Reply
Someone with photoshop skills needs to do something with this image.
mb21Quote Reply
I think Brenly made a good point about somebody going out to the mound to give Garza a minute to collect himself after Gomes’ homer. He managed to get out of the inning but it seemed like a good time for Riggins to make a trip to the mound.
melissaQuote Reply
[quote name=melissa]I bet it’s similar to the way Todd Ricketts felt when he tried to sell hot dogs.[/quote]
No way – that was his first job after he got his college degree (dying laughing)
BerseliusQuote Reply
I’d like to see Hendry and Quade’s faces photoshopped onto Dr Evil and his cat. Of course, Quade is the cat.
melissaQuote Reply
[quote name=melissa]I’d like to see Hendry and Quade’s faces photoshopped onto Dr Evil and his cat. Of course, Quade is the cat.[/quote]
The cat after the freezing process, right?
Rice CubeQuote Reply
Of course Campana breaks up the no-hitter on an infield single (dying laughing)
Rice CubeQuote Reply
I’m impressed that they still nearly threw him out
BerseliusQuote Reply
Campana!
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=mb21]Someone with photoshop skills needs to do something with this image.
binkyQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]
In other words, ask a stupid question, get a stupid answer.[/quote]
At least we can all agree your answer was stupid,
Dick McCheesedoodleQuote Reply
[quote name=josh]Perhaps they could accurately portray the fact that Eliot Ness’s investigation and raids led to no real charges against Capone, while meanwhile a bunch of tax nerds used paid informants and careful investigation for years to pin tax evasion charges that actually stuck?[/quote]They could do that or they could slap Cubs uniforms on them and make it so it’s Jeff Baker, Reed Johnson, Sean Marshall and someone else.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=Dick McCheesedoodle]At least we can all agree your answer was stupid,[/quote]
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=Dick McCheesedoodle]At least we can all agree your answer was stupid,[/quote]
lacus confutatio desit latinam
BerseliusQuote Reply
DP-Leeted
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
Haven’t seen you around for a long time, Dick Cheese.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=Rice Cube]Of course Campana breaks up the no-hitter on an infield single (dying laughing)[/quote]He was trying to bunt earlier. I wonder if Q will give him a lecture about violating baseball’s unwritten rules.
ACTQuote Reply
[quote name=Steve Swisher]@Mercurial Outfielder: I apologize. A little too much drinky, long day, cranky wife. Not cool. Sorry.[/quote]It happens. I was overboard, anyway. All apologies.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=mb21]Haven’t seen you around for a long time, Dick Cheese.[/quote]It’s taken him a while to get out famunda.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=mb21]They could do that or they could slap Cubs uniforms on them and make it so it’s Jeff Baker, Reed Johnson, Sean Marshall and someone else.[/quote]Probably funnier that way.
binkyQuote Reply
It’s weird seeing Clappy McGee (Jonny Gomes) as a non-Red.
binkyQuote Reply
[quote name=Berselius]lacus confutatio desit latinam[/quote]morentibus risum
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]It’s taken him a while to get out famunda.[/quote]Give him a break. He just realized ACB was done.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=mb21]Give him a break. He just realized ACB was done.[/quote]Wait, ACB is done? I thought we were just here because the blog was hacked.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=josh]It’s weird seeing Clappy McGee (Jonny Gomes) as a non-Red.[/quote]I always thought it was weird seeing him as a non-Ray.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]Wait, ACB is done? I thought we were just here because the blog was hacked.[/quote]I could answer that question, but I was fired and forced to sign a confidentiality agreement.
mb21Quote Reply
Cubs’ hitters’ BABIP is amazingly low in this game.
ACTQuote Reply
[quote name=ACT]Cubs’ hitters’ BABIP is amazingly low in this game.[/quote]
Soriano shut you right up.
Well, not really.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
Oooh, I didn’t know Kerry Wood could throw 96 mph anymore.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
97! Dang, Kerry.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=Rice Cube]97! Dang, Kerry.[/quote]”The next day, Kerry was found dead in his home with an exploded arm.”
binkyQuote Reply
Wow, nice inning by Wood there.
ACTQuote Reply
BJax batting average —> .316
Rice CubeQuote Reply
Did someone forget to tell the Cubs hitters that the wind is howling out today?
ACTQuote Reply
[quote name=ACT]Did someone forget to tell the Cubs hitters that the wind is howling out today?[/quote]
I think Geo tried but the wind didn’t help him much.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
It appears the negative faget point bandit doesn’t like Kerry Wood.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
No more outfielders on the bench. Unless you count Baker.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
Starlin!
ACTQuote Reply
Starlin hits his second homer is as many games.
ACTQuote Reply
His third in 2 weeks.
ACTQuote Reply
Starlin Castro is good at sports.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
It wouldn’t hurt his value if he could do that 15-20 times per year and keep his average up.
binkyQuote Reply
[quote name=ACT]Starlin hits his second homer is as many games.[/quote]
He’s only 1-4. Not that impressive.
/KG
BerseliusQuote Reply
[quote name=Rice Cube]the negative faget point bandit .[/quote]
(dying laughing).
melissaQuote Reply
[quote name=Rice Cube] the negative faget point bandit [/quote]
Worst Batman villain ever.
Aisle424Quote Reply
[quote name=Aisle424]Worst Batman villain ever.[/quote]Assflea Face disagrees.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
Good thing they got DeWitt that extra AB. Those four outs probably weren’t all that important.
binkyQuote Reply
[quote name=Aisle424]Worst Batman villain ever.[/quote]
Rice CubeQuote Reply
Isn’t it 3 in a week for Castro
mb21Quote Reply
Ah, there’s the BJax strikeout.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
What’s considered a good OBP? Around .400?
binkyQuote Reply
I think that Pena PA took ten minutes
BerseliusQuote Reply
[quote name=josh]Good thing they got DeWitt that extra AB. Those four outs probably weren’t all that important.[/quote]Hey, we’re trying to win games here.
The truth is, out of Quade’s possible lineup combination in Ramirez’ absence, DeWitt probably was the best choice. Maybe not to hit 3rd, but Ramirez was apparently a late scratch. This roster is a mess.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=josh]What’s considered a good OBP? Around .400?[/quote]
I’d call .400 a great-to-awsome OBP. .350 or so is what I would call “good”. Though I’m too lazy to look up the averages to justify it (dying laughing)
BerseliusQuote Reply
Watching a doc on VS. about Out baseball player Glenn Burke. Apparently the Dodgers offered to pay him to marry a woman. Instead he dated LaSorda’s son. (dying laughing). Never knew about this dude, pretty interesting. He played in the late 70s and I don’t think there has been an out player since which is rather surprising.
melissaQuote Reply
[quote name=josh]What’s considered a good OBP? Around .400?[/quote]Depends on league average on the whole and for your position. Generally, though, anything north of .350 is pretty good.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
Only four players in the NL have an OBP over .400 this year: Votto, Holliday, Fielder, and Berkman
BerseliusQuote Reply
[quote name=Berselius]Only four players in the NL have an OBP over .400 this year: Votto, Holliday, Fielder, and Berkman[/quote]
Making outs is so in vogue.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=mb21]Isn’t it 3 in a week for Castro[/quote]It’s 3 in 6 games.
ACTQuote Reply
It’s like Spring Training where he teased us with his display of power.
ACTQuote Reply
[quote name=Berselius]Only four players in the NL have an OBP over .400 this year: Votto, Holliday, Fielder, and Berkman[/quote][quote name=Berselius]I’d call .400 a great-to-awsome OBP. .350 or so is what I would call “good”. Though I’m too lazy to look up the averages to justify it (dying laughing)[/quote]
Okay, thanks.
binkyQuote Reply
Castro and Barney each had four PAs and each saw only 9 pitches all game. One of those pitches didn’t come back though.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
I think they should just elect Castro to the Hall of Fame already. I know there’s a rule about having to be retired a few years, but they’re allowed to make exceptions in extreme cases.
ACTQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]Hey, we’re trying to win games here.
The truth is, out of Quade’s possible lineup combination in Ramirez’ absence, DeWitt probably was the best choice. Maybe not to hit 3rd, but Ramirez was apparently a late scratch. This roster is a mess.[/quote]Yeah, I was thinking just having him so high up is a mistake. He’s a part-time player. Ah whatever.
binkyQuote Reply
[quote name=ACT]I think they should just elect Castro to the Hall of Fame already. I know there’s a rule about having to be retired a few years, but they’re allowed to make exceptions in extreme cases.[/quote]Or, they could wait, say 3-4 years when he’s REALLY good and everyone knows it, offer him a team-friendly contract and demand he sign it. When he agrees, they could revoke the offer and let him go free agent. THAT would be AWESOME.
binkyQuote Reply
Hitting him third also creates 2-straight left-handed hitters in the lineup as well (though I don’t know if the Nats’ pen has a good LOOGY to take advantage).
ACTQuote Reply
There are alot of really good games/series on tonight.
Recalcitrant Blogger NateQuote Reply
[quote name=ACT]Hitting him third also creates 2-straight left-handed hitters in the lineup as well (though I don’t know if the Nats’ pen has a good LOOGY to take advantage).[/quote]I really can’t believe how this roster ties Quade in knots sometimes.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
I don’t think Blake is a bad bench/backup player, for what it’s worth. Q also had better options to hit third, and could have easily altered his lineup to avoid having 2 lefties in a row.
ACTQuote Reply
Ted Lilly batting against Cliff Lee. Who will win this epic battle?
ACTQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]I really can’t believe how this roster ties Quade in knots sometimes.[/quote]Put the names in a hat. Throw them into the air. Pick them up with your eyes closed. There’s your batting order. It’ll revolutionize the game of baseball. Fight variance with variance.
binkyQuote Reply
[quote name=ACT]I don’t think Blake is a bad bench/backup player, for what it’s worth. Q also had better options to hit third, and could have easily altered his lineup to avoid having 2 lefties in a row.[/quote]I suppose. But LH guys with no power aren’t ideal bench guys. It’s strange that Quade wouldn’t have made the adjustment.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Rice Cube]BJax batting average —> .316[/quote]There’s dozens of players with a higher average, not impressive.
/KG.
GBTSQuote Reply
DeWitt is a better hitter than Barney, especially against an RHP. If anything, I have more of a problem batting Barney second than DeWitt third (from a win-now perspective, DeWitt should probably be getting the starts at second against RHP rather than Barney).
ACTQuote Reply
Question for those who go to games:
What type of power does Castro show in BP?
I have never seen him take BP so i dont have any idea
bubblesdachimpQuote Reply
[quote name=ACT]DeWitt is a better hitter than Barney, especially against an RHP. If anything, I have more of a problem batting Barney second than DeWitt third (from a win-now perspective, DeWitt should probably be getting the starts at second against RHP rather than Barney).[/quote]That makes sense. Barney shouldn’t be batting anywhere above 8, IMO.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
A walk for B-Jax.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]That makes sense. Barney shouldn’t be batting anywhere above 8, IMO.[/quote]Yeah, I thought Q had a decent thing going with the Reed/Fuk platoon leading off and Barney batting 8th. Not that I disagree with the Fukudome trade, but it really messed up the Cubs lineup.
ACTQuote Reply
http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=17845823
Well, this was definitely wind-aided, but I’ll take it.
ACTQuote Reply
[quote name=ACT]Yeah, I thought Q had a decent thing going with the Reed/Fuk platoon leading off and Barney batting 8th. Not that I disagree with the Fukudome trade, but it really messed up the Cubs lineup.[/quote]Meh. They could have easily used Reed and Campana the way they used Reed and Fukudome until they decided what they’re going to do with Jackson in September. There’s a significant dropoff there, to be sure, but it’s probably the best option.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
In Garza’s last 8 starts combined, the Cubs have scored 9 runs.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
FG says Tony Campana has a HR/FB of 7.7%. I think that alone invalidates the stat. Honestly, though, I’m amazed that stat doesn’t exclude inside-the-park HR’s (tiny as the effect may be). I wonder if they are excluded from BABIP as well.
ACTQuote Reply
[quote name=ACT]FG says Tony Campana has a HR/FB of 7.7%. I think that alone invalidates the stat. Honestly, though, I’m amazed that stat doesn’t exclude inside-the-park HR’s (tiny as the effect may be). I wonder if they are excluded from BABIP as well.[/quote]I can understand why they ought to be excluded by HR/FB, but why should BABiP exclude them?
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
Running some calculations (using Campana) it does look as though his home run was counted as a ball in play. I still think it’s weird that it counts toward his HR/FB ratio, though.
ACTQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]I can understand why they ought to be excluded by HR/FB, but why should BABiP exclude them?[/quote]I wasn’t saying it should; I was wondering whether they treated all home runs the same.
ACTQuote Reply
[quote name=ACT]Running some calculations (using Campana) it does look as though his home run was counted as a ball in play. I still think it’s weird that it counts toward his HR/FB ratio, though.[/quote]Yeah, that just doesn’t seem right.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=ACT]I wasn’t saying it should; I was wondering whether they treated all home runs the same.[/quote]Ah, I see. I have no idea, but it’s an interesting question.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
I always thought it was weird that the term “home run” is used to describe 2 very different kinds of hits, albeit with the same overall effect.
ACTQuote Reply
[quote name=ACT]I always thought it was weird that the term “home run” is used to describe 2 very different kinds of hits, albeit with the same overall effect.[/quote]It’s also rare that a ITPHR happens without a major defensive lapse.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=ACT]Running some calculations (using Campana) it does look as though his home run was counted as a ball in play. I still think it’s weird that it counts toward his HR/FB ratio, though.[/quote]
I guess since it left the infield before touching down, it was scored a “fly ball” despite being more of a line drive. That’s weird as hell though. Must be a glitch in the automated script they set up.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]It’s also rare that a ITPHR happens without a major defensive lapse.[/quote]Yeah, they aren’t hit any differently that any other extra-base hit, which is why it’s a little misleading to lump them in with long flies. I definitely think HR/FB should be the percentage of flies that left the park and not “left the park or bounced away from the fielder.” That’s just lumping apples with oranges.
ACTQuote Reply
[quote name=ACT]Yeah, they aren’t hit any differently that any other extra-base hit, which is why it’s a little misleading to lump them in with long flies. I definitely think HR/FB should be the percentage of flies that left the park and not “left the park or bounced away from the fielder.” That’s just lumping apples with oranges.[/quote]Agreed.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
Yea bubbles is about done with darwin barney
edit: hes a solid player to have on a team but he shouldnt be starting
bubblesdachimpQuote Reply
[quote name=bubblesdachimp]Yea bubbles is about done with darwin barney
edit: hes a solid player to have on a team but he shouldnt be starting[/quote]I think ACT is onto something with a DeWitt-Barney platoon.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]I think ACT is onto something with a DeWitt-Barney platoon.[/quote]
Now watch Quade make it a LF platoon (dying laughing)
Rice CubeQuote Reply
Barney has been pretty much what we expected he’d be heading into this season: a weak hitter and strong defender. The only surprise is that he had a hot start that got some people excited.
Anyway, before I go to bed, here’s one random stat for today:
Castro: .313/.341 /442
Pena: .221/.346/.444
ACTQuote Reply
Beliveau and Rhoderick are intriguing arms in Tennessee..
Also Larry Suarez has made it to AA…
bubblesdachimpQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]I think ACT is onto something with a DeWitt-Barney platoon.[/quote]
I dont know how good Barneys defense is to make up for the bat. But from my watching baseball Dewitt just cant seem to play a competent second base.
bubblesdachimpQuote Reply
Koyie tried:
http://muskat.mlblogs.com/2011/08/09/89-extra-bases/
Rice CubeQuote Reply
Houston blew a 7-1 lead but still in this game. Come on, Astros! Cubbies gonna make up that game!
Too bad Baltimore lost too.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=ACT]http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=17845823
Well, this was definitely wind-aided, but I’ll take it.[/quote](dying laughing)
I can’t believe that got out.
GBTSQuote Reply
New Pic of the Day: http://obstructedview.net/chicago-cubs/articles/ov-pic-of-the-day-wind-blowing-out-cubs-just-blowing.html
Aisle424Quote Reply