The Cubs are even closer to completing the trade for Aroldis Chapman that was rumored yesterday. For now, this is just a placeholder until any new info comes in on it. The most recent reports seems to suggest that the sure thing piece going to the Yankees would be Gleyber Torres who was the Cubs top prospect entering the season. I’d have put Willson Contreras there, but that’s not important right now. It’s also sounding like Adam Warren will be included and so will Billy McKinney. The first reports I read this morning said that four players would be going to New York, which is a fucking ransom to pay for a couple months of Chapman, but here we are.
UPDATE 1 @ 11:42 AM: Jon Heyman says the deal is completed.
Yanks and Cubs have a deal. Torres, mckinney, Warren and likely 1 more to NYY.
— Jon Heyman (@JonHeyman) July 25, 2016
Comments
I don’t like it for a number of reasons. I also now don’t like it for baseball reasons.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
Increasingly, yes. And worry-making because it appears to be an unusually short-sighted move from a FO that has done so well resisting such temptations in the past.
Yeesh, I topped out at Chapman AND Miller for ONE impact type young player.
Smokestack LightningQuote Reply
Considering how bad the Cubs fleeced the As with the Smardz/Russell deal, you would think they would be a little more cautious making this potential trade for Chapman. All the talk about making short term assets into long term assets and this trade will be a direct contradiction to that. I don’t get it.
MuckerQuote Reply
It sounds like the trade is contingent on signing Chapman to an extension, which makes it kind of long term. Though not really a bargain.
berseliusQuote Reply
berselius,
There are conflicting reports about whether an extension is being worked on, but I do think it’s likely one is. I don’t think for a second that Theo would give up this much for 2 months of Chapman.
dmick89Quote Reply
To give you an idea how lopsided this deal was when it was just Torres for Chapman, every single Yankees fan commenting on RLYW was in love with the trade. It’s rare that a fan base loves a trade, but now the Cubs are throwing in others and it’s reaching a whole new level of suck.
dmick89Quote Reply
The reports of that have been conflicting, but given this FO’s MO, that’s the only way this move makes baseball sense to me. It also explains why the trade, if it is as reported right now, isn’t finally final yet. Shouldn’t be any hesitation on the Yankee side at this point.
Smokestack LightningQuote Reply
dmick89,
The only person reporting an extension was Rian Watt who has since backtracked that.
JonKneeVQuote Reply
Smokestack Lightning,
Especially since they’ve gotten the approval from Hal.
dmick89Quote Reply
JonKneeV,
Oh, OK.
dmick89Quote Reply
berselius,
Yeah, I saw that but last I saw they said an extension might not be happening. And you have to wonder why would Chapman sign an extension now anyways. You would think he would want to test the market being that he’s so close to free agency.
MuckerQuote Reply
Yeah, it’s not like Chapman is playing for the Twins or Braves. He’s at Yankees Stadium and they may not be very good, it’s the Yankees.
dmick89Quote Reply
Is it just Chapman? I wouldn’t mind it if Beltran was coming too. It just seems like a lot to give up.
MuckerQuote Reply
That’s because it is.
Unless maybe Theo doesn’t mind blowing it up a little now in an attempt to win it all because he’s not re-upping after this year and this is his last shot at winning a title as a member of the organization .
Smokestack LightningQuote Reply
Heyman says it is done.
Smokestack LightningQuote Reply
Heyman says Torres McKinney, Warren, and probably a lotto ticket we won’t care about. That’s an insane package though.
JonKneeVQuote Reply
I guess I’m glad they didn’t try to get Beltran in the deal. That would have cost them Kris Bryant and Willson Contreras.
dmick89Quote Reply
I know everyone is saying only Chapman is coming back, but I have to think Theo is getting a second piece here.
JonKneeVQuote Reply
Agreed, though I don’t care much about Warren. I think he could be a good reliever at some point, but other than that I don’t think there’s much there. Torres alone was too much and I’ve been one of the few suggesting that McKinney hasn’t actually taken a step back this year. This deal sucks.
dmick89Quote Reply
I hope so. Maybe Blastro since we sent back Warren? (dying laughing)
Smokestack LightningQuote Reply
Welp, I guess if Chapman’s firing 105 at some AL team in late October and hoisting a trophy shortly thereafter, I’ll probably forget about who we gave up to get him.
Smokestack LightningQuote Reply
Smokestack Lightning,
I am looking forward to watching the backend of the Cubs bullpen. Strop, Rondon, Chapman. That’s going to be fun. I guess if there’s any positive about this, it’s best that it makes the Cubs better right now and certainly improves their odds in October. Not enough to give up what they did, and now maybe people will open their eyes and realize that Theo and company aren’t perfect. Hopefully they’ll stop treating them like Gods.
dmick89Quote Reply
The cost of keeping 105mph from the Nats and a mystery team (the Cards?) is pretty damn high. This is what happens when you smoke doobies to consummate deals, though one has to wonder whether actions taken under the influence of behavior-altering “medications” truly count as consensual.
The only way this squares for me is if there is a two-year, $30M extension and the Yankees are picking up $12M of it.
ceruleanQuote Reply
Not if they win a WS.
Smokestack LightningQuote Reply
I’d be much happier right now if Torres had been part of a deal that brought back Chris Archer. I always figured he was probably ticketed for a trade at some point. But I thought it wouldn’t be for anything less than that kind of return.
Smokestack LightningQuote Reply
Smokestack Lightning,
Yeah, i actually thought Torres would be traded at some point, too. I just figured it would get the Cubs a better player who has more years of control.
Sounds like Rashad Crawford is the fourth player involved in the deal.
dmick89Quote Reply
Also, this deal makes me wonder if Theo really believes the playoffs are a crapshoot. Or whether that’s just shit you say when you get bounced out or can’t pull the trade off.
Smokestack LightningQuote Reply
To those not happy Chapman’s domestic violence case, this Deadspin article summarized the police report and memo from the law office. I still think he’s probably not a good person and had a bigger fight with his spouse than a good human being would, but it sounds like the media headlines were a little worse than what was actually reported by the victim. Mainly that he didn’t “choke” her in what our definition of “choke” is (i.e. – strangle). He shot a gun in an empty detached garage.
http://deadspin.com/why-prosecutors-didnt-bring-charges-against-aroldis-cha-1754305230
JonKneeVQuote Reply
dmick89,
If they didn’t/don’t make the deal and get swept in the postseason, that will probably have more of the not-gods effect than if they make the deal and win, even though they give up a bunch of stuff. You know what I mean? Fans want the WS and want it now. I’m not saying I don’t get what you mean, but in the court of popular opinion, this is more likely to be a win if they make the deal (and win).
Joshua AllenQuote Reply
I still like this deal better than Kyle Schwarber for Andrew Miller. If that deal happened I might have been pissed off enough to give up being a baseball fan. Despite the Cubs still giving up way too much, odds are that Torres will flame out and never amount to much and the same goes for the rest of the players included in the deal. Giving up Schwarber would have given up a guy who has already proven he can hit MLB pitching very, very well and only gotten a reliever in return, though Miller is a great reliever.
dmick89Quote Reply
JonKneeV,
Thanks. That is certainly a bit different than the reports I remember reading.
dmick89Quote Reply
dmick89,
Does your opinion improve if they extend him and turn him into an effective starter for 2-3 years?
JoshQuote Reply
Yep. How much will we honestly care about what Theo gave up in this deal if the Cubs win it all this year? I doubt very much. And if so, it’s enough to cause one to wonder what one is actually a fan of.
Smokestack LightningQuote Reply
Joshua Allen,
You and Smokey are probably right. The anger I saw last night on twitter, though, I hadn’t seen that before with this organization since Thoyer took over.
Chapman is probably not a very good person, but he’s a great pitcher and ultimately that’s what I most care about. If that makes me a bad person, so be it. I’m certain that complaining about him isn’t going to solve domestic violence. I saw some people make some sick excuses for him on twitter and I won’t do that, but I’m more than capable of rooting for him to do well so it helps the Cubs while also acknowledging that he is not anyone I would ever want to get to know personally and I sure as hell wouldn’t invite him over for dinner.
dmick89Quote Reply
Bob Nightengale sez Cubs tried hard for an extension but Chapman was no dummy. Will test the market.
Could be Cubs will just beat any offer that comes down the pike then. Tho, given the skyrocketing cost for relievers, we probably won’t like that either.
Smokestack LightningQuote Reply
I had considered the option of turning Chapman into a starter, but recall that he was never interested while with the Reds. Or maybe the Reds were the ones who weren’t interested. Not sure how easy it would be to stretch him out after doing nothing but one-inning relief stints (with the occasional two-inning save) in MLB.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
Josh,
Probably not. I think stretching him out at this point in his career would be difficult, but even if they managed to do that, the Yankees weren’t selling him as a starter and the Cubs would be paying near market value for his services with the extension.
I guess this is just the cost of doing business for this type of player at the deadline. The Cubs front office is good enough to not bid against themselves, I think. I doubt their offer was significantly better than the next best offer. If it was, this front office is a lot less smarter than I have given them credit for.
dmick89Quote Reply
it might be argued that the Cubs trade is better without the extension. As much as I hate giving all that up for 2 months, I’m not sure I want to give all that up for 3 or 4 years while paying market value. Say he had 4 years and $60 million left on his contract. Is there any chance on earth the Yankees would get the deal they’re currently getting?
dmick89Quote Reply
Well, it’s not so much being right about Chapman as it is having learned from the big mistakes that can be made when one tries to form a definitive opinion about someone or something with only partial information. While there’s no risk in thinking one way or another about Chapman here, doing the same in, say, one’s personal relationships can cause a lot of damage. With a lot of regret and shame, I can say I know this first-hand.
I also hate modern media. And given the rush to not only get a story out first but shape the narrative in the process (not to mention just how unintelligent many of these narrative-shapers are these days), I rarely trust first reports about much of anything. We live in Hot Take Nation. And any thoughtful, even-handed account takes a long time to work its way through the system, and sadly, most people rarely see it, because they’re already being herded by the media to the next Worst Thing Ever that we all should be jumping up and down about.
Smokestack LightningQuote Reply
I don’t really know how to feel about this trade. I love having a dominant closer and Chapman is that. But I’ve seen some possible flaws in this team that I wonder how effective having Chapman is really going to be. Although they are finally getting healthier, the offense still seems to be really stagnant at times. The rotation has struggled big time in the last month or two outside of Hendricks. Would Hendricks be the 3rd starter at this point in a playoff rotation? Lackey has been awful for about the past month or so. Don’t get me wrong, Chapman is a beast but I just worry that the Cubs might have put the cart in front of the horse in this trade.
MuckerQuote Reply
i feel like no one wants to address the elephant in the room but i can’t keep quiet about this any longer. if chapman gets added to the roster, clayton “kershaw” richard will likely get sent to iowa and that is the most devastating part of this whole trade.
EnricoPallazzoQuote Reply
I may grow to hate this trade when Torres becomes a star, but for now, I’m resolved to just be excited at the new bullpen weapon they’ve acquired.
Rizzo the RatQuote Reply
EnricoPallazzo,
I actually think it’s Edwards who heads back to Iowa due to crowding/contract status of the pen. Unless the Cubs decide to cut bait on Grimm, Cahill, or Travis Wood.
berseliusQuote Reply
berselius,
The writing was on the wall for Richard once they made the trade with Seattle. Of course, it’s been on the wall for months and he’s still here (dying laughing).
berseliusQuote Reply
Mucker,
I think all of these “flaws” were present before a month ago. They just out-performed every expectation to that point so we overlooked them and pretended they were the 1927 Yankees. Hendricks would probably be the 4th starter. Lackey has struggled lately, but he’s still a good pitcher. Same goes for Arrieta and Lester. None of them were as good as they had pitched in the first two months, but none are as bad as they’ve pitched in the last month. Hendricks isn’t as good as he’s pitched so we’ll see some regression from him too.
I still think Lf was more important than closer and am disappointed so far that they haven’t done anything. I’m still hoping they go after Reddick. If you’re giving up this much to get a closer that you maybe don’t even need, you may as well go all in and go after someone like Reddick or even Bruce or Beltran.
dmick89Quote Reply
One additional thing that bothers me is the idea that Chapman must make some grand show of public remorse for what he did, when what he did has nothing to do with the public. What happened is between him and his girlfriend, friends, and family, and uh, I guess the garage. The amends need to be made there, not with me, not the media. Chapman doesn’t owe any of us a single thing other than to pitch his ass off.
Smokestack LightningQuote Reply
I use a plus/minus system like the great Phil Rogers and by my math, this ends up being a 0 for the Cubs. They added a lefty (+1), but will lose a lefty (-1).
dmick89Quote Reply
berselius,
You think they go with 4 lefties?
dmick89Quote Reply
This. Chapman does not owe me an apology. I’ve said the same thing about players who may have taken steroids. They may owe an apology to someone, but it sure as shit isn’t me.
dmick89Quote Reply
At this point you may as well go all in. Go after a left handed hitting left fielder, a starting pitcher and save some money to purchase a case to put the World Series trophy in.
dmick89Quote Reply
Chris Sale is going to pitch Thursday, right? I’m going to be doing the preview so I’m just checking to make sure. The Cubs.com probables lists the Sox (and the Cubs) with no named starter.
dmick89Quote Reply
I think Sahadev makes good points here: https://theathletic.com/2016/07/25/what-the-cubs-really-gave-up-for-aroldis-chapman/
JoshQuote Reply
Isn’t he suspended for 5 games?
Smokestack LightningQuote Reply
dmick89,
Yes but for the Cubs #allin
Joshua AllenQuote Reply
Smokestack Lightning,
5 days, not 5 games
JoshQuote Reply
dmick89,
isn’t he still suspended? or was the suspension retroactive to saturday?
EnricoPallazzoQuote Reply
I love that my twitter handle for my job is @illinois_trans
Carry on about your business.
JoshQuote Reply
EnricoPallazzo,
5 days. Cubs will probably still see him at some point.
joshQuote Reply
EnricoPallazzo,
Yeah, it was 5 days and it started Saturday. He’ll be available on Thursday.
dmick89Quote Reply
I don’t think it really counts if one of them is the closer.
Once Cahill gets back I think we see a bullpen ordering of
?
Rondon
Strop
Montgomery (lefty-oriented, not but not nec a LOOGY)
Cahill
Wood (long man)
Nathan
Edwards/Grimm
I can’t remember Grimm’s option status, but I think the Cubs would prefer to send him down given how things have looked. They might be able to use the excuse of stretching him out too now that Warren is no longer the effective 6th starter.
I forgot that ? was essentially replacing Warren, making the bullpen crunch less bad than I thought.
berseliusQuote Reply
Josh,
Very good article. Thanks.
dmick89Quote Reply
Too bad we can’t do more than one macro (dying laughing).
berseliusQuote Reply
Don’t tell me what to do.
berseliusQuote Reply
Some of it depends on how Nathan does, too. Same with Grimm. If Grimm turns it around and Nathan sticks, I do think they option Edwards since they can. I don’t think they can option Grimm unless he clears waivers and that won’t happen.
dmick89Quote Reply
berselius,
We can. Check out the admin section > Tools > Better Search Replace and add what you’d like.
dmick89Quote Reply
That’s what I remembered for Warren too from the bullpen crunch article I wrote at the beginning of the season, but I think it’s the kind of waivers that no one ever claims. Though given his results you’d think the Cubs would have done it already.
berseliusQuote Reply
dmick89,
I’ll check it out when I get home.
berseliusQuote Reply
Oh, you mean the pile of shit emoji. Not sure you could do that and probably isn’t best that we do it for a player’s name. At least not long term anyway. (dying laughing)
dmick89Quote Reply
berselius,
According to TCR Grimm has an option left, and would have to be put on Optional Assignment Waivers, which are revocable and thus never claimed
berseliusQuote Reply
berselius,
Wonder why they haven’t done that then.
dmick89Quote Reply
dmick89,
I guess I’ll just keep it as a personal policy for now
berseliusQuote Reply
berselius,
It’s a solid personal policy.
dmick89Quote Reply
dmick89,
Relevant. I think. I’m actually totally lost: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8ugctHaj8c
joshQuote Reply
Ugh. I wish the interwebs would just tell me how to feel about this trade…
On one hand, he seems to be a garbage human.
On the other hand, he’s pretty lights out.
On the third hand, the whole garbage human thing.
On the forth hand, besides Torres (who is real young and could wash out), the cubs didn’t give up a ton
On the fifth hand, GARBAGE. HUMAN.
I don’t know. Also, in case you’re wondering, John Lackey acquired several hands for me to use.
mikeakaleroyQuote Reply
Out of curiosity, why do we really dislike Lackey more than someone like Lester who was doing the same stupid shit Lackey was in Boston? Is it just because he seems like an asshole? I’m not a fan of Lackey either, but I always have to remind myself that Lester was involved in that dumb shit in Boston, too.
What was it that Lester said a few days ago? Something about how the young players have to stop trying to force plays defensively. He may as well have just said that Russell needs to stop fucking up because that’s who he was talking about. That rubbed me the wrong way and probably didn’t make Russell and Rizzo (I think it was after he made some ill-advised throw during a Lester start actually) very happy.
dmick89Quote Reply
I think most of the Lackey stuff comes from him being a red-assed Texas good ol’ boy wannabe cowboy, nothing to do with Boston.
berseliusQuote Reply
mikeakaleroy,
My problem here is that I bet if you chose any random baseball player, I’d probably hate the fucking shit out of him personally. This is based on my small sample of people I know that played baseball in college, yes, but I think it’s true.
joshQuote Reply
berselius,
Agreed there
joshQuote Reply
berselius,
I’m not even 100% sure what happened in boston. Something about…….. trash talk? Throwing at dudes?
joshQuote Reply
josh,
Yep, that’s how I feel.
dmick89Quote Reply
josh,
I think the clubhouse was kind of out of control. Lackey and Lester were getting drunk and eating fried chicken or some shit during games.
dmick89Quote Reply
josh,
Something about beer and fried chicken in the clubhouse.
JonKneeVQuote Reply
JonKneeV,
Okay, yeah, I recall that now.
joshQuote Reply
dmick89,
That’s typically how I spend baseball games, so I’m not sure what the big deal is.
uncle daveQuote Reply
At least it’s not Daniel Murphy.
JonKneeVQuote Reply
josh,
mikeakaleroy,
This may be a selfish point of view, but I’m not really bothered knowing that there’s now a wife beater in the Cubs’ clubhouse. I was already working under the assumption that was true (and that it’s true of all 30 teams, though the regular caveats and shades of grey statements apply).
What bugs me is that a legion of people have and will continue to come out of the woodwork and enlighten us all with a worldview on domestic violence where nothing exists save for ‘nothing important happened’ on one side and ‘he got convicted but was probably set up anyway’ on the other, and I have to come to terms with the fact that those attitudes are not only disturbingly prevalent in general, but also are held by an awful lot of people who root for the Cubs.
We saw it with the Patrick Kane situation. After a certain point, the facts of the case weren’t really particularly relevant to the conversation. The disturbing part was, and continues to be, the legion of white hat bros who came out of the woodwork to scream at anyone who suggested that the team and the NHL should take measures that were beyond what are required by and allowed within the criminal justice system. Without a doubt, that system has grossly failed victims of domestic violence, but an unfortunately large number of people ignore or deny that to be the case.
Some folks may not understand the message that lies behind Chapman’s decision to shoot up his garage, but I assure you that the woman involved did.
uncle daveQuote Reply
dmick89,
I don’t care about the shit that went down in Boston. If they were winning, it wouldn’t have mattered. I think this is where most fans get their Lackey hate: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-2042089/John-Lackey-files-divorce-wife-Krista-battles-breast-cancer.html
mikeakaleroyQuote Reply
I don’t see it as a selfish point of view, but maybe that’s because it’s the same opinion I’ve had. I’d actually be shocked to learn that there isn’t at least one wife beater already in the clubhouse (players, coaches, managers, etc.). It’s likely there are multiple abusers within that clubhouse. Sucks, but it’s probably true.
dmick89Quote Reply
uncle dave,
Yeah, that is troublesome. I’m def not trying to defend the guy for what he did, it’s reprehensible. I already quit the NFL for similar reasons. Sports culture gets harder and harder to stomach.
joshQuote Reply
Chapman, Ricketts, issue statements:
https://twitter.com/Cubs/status/757661173302956032/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw
Smokestack LightningQuote Reply
Smokestack Lightning,
Saw that. Probably a good move on the part of Thoyer to ask him to do that. Shows they at least understand the concerns.
joshQuote Reply
Yep. Smart to get out in front of it. And who knows? There’s at least an outside chance Chapman means it.
Smokestack LightningQuote Reply
josh,
I’m trying to very PC when I say this as to not offend anyone, but let’s not act like Chapman bruised and bloodied his girlfriend. He exercised poor judgement and it is all on display because of his profession and how he excels in his profession. This story wouldn’t even make the local paper if it wasn’t a famous person.
That said, those of a healthy lifestyle and self awareness do not intimidate or attempt to harm others. While there’s a good chance this wasn’t the first time he’s had an argument get out of hand, there’s also a decent chance he hasn’t. I’m not going to be the judge, jury, and executioner. I’ve made one time mistakes before.
He’s not going to be my favorite player, but damn if I’m not going to root for him to strike out every single batter he faces for the rest of 2016.
JonKneeVQuote Reply
not sure why others don’t like him but i just think lackey is a huge whiner. he bitches about called balls that are 3 inches out of the zone. in a post-game show, he called out baez and russell for not turning a double play. just a whiny bitch of a player.
EnricoPallazzoQuote Reply
Pretty much sums it up for me. I don’t think Chapman should be getting any Boyfriend of the Year awards, but for all intents and purposes the situation appears to have been dealt with. If he’s reconciled with his girlfriend (and she appears to have forgiven him), got off the sauce (which can turn anybody into a maniac), and is trying to be a better person, then well, not sure what more we can want or have a right to want. Can’t undo what’s already been done. Just have to go forward and not do that shit again.
And so far, so good, it seems.
Smokestack LightningQuote Reply
I will not miss John Lackey when he’s gone. And at the same time I hope he dominates every start from here on out.
Smokestack LightningQuote Reply
JonKneeV,
I miss the ability to vote up comments like this one. Thanks.
dmick89Quote Reply
They have those?
dmick89Quote Reply
This. I don’t like the guy either, but I think he’s pretty good and he’s going to be a big part of the Cubs in the playoffs, I think.
dmick89Quote Reply
dmick89,
I was runner-up for BOTY ’81, ’82 and ’84
SKQuote Reply
new shit: http://obstructedview.net/series-preview-chicago-cubs-59-38-chicago-white-sox-48-50/
dmick89Quote Reply