Ever since Aramis Ramirez remembered how to hit baseballs there has been increasing talk here and elsewhere about how his trade value suddenly jumped. Him hitting baseballs well again certainly did not hurt his value and did even increase it slightly, but we’re still talking two months for a guy who will make $4.9 million.
His current ZiPS rest of season wOBA is .357 and if we’re generous and give him 200 plate appearances and -2 runs combined on defense and baserunning, he’s worth only 1 WAR. The value of the win this season is $4.5 million so he’s worth less than he’s being paid. However, he’s likely to be a Type B free agent and I suppose he has a slim chance of becoming a Type A. The extra draft pick is worth roughly $2.5 million he has a surplus trade value of $2.1 million.
Looking at this piece from a couple years ago, that makes the expected return for Ramirez a Grace C pitcher, 22 or younger. In other words. The pitcher the Cubs acquired yesterday for Fukudome, Carlton Smith, is a Grade C prospect though he’s oder than 22. That gives you an idea of what you can expect in return for Ramirez. If the Cubs sent $3.1 million along in the trade they could get a Grade B hitting prospect.
Someone wondered earlier if the Cubs could get a top 100 prospect in return. A top 100 hitting prospect (#76-100) is worth $12.5 million. The same ranked pitchers are worth $9.8 million. It’s unlikely the Cubs are going to come away with much to look forward to, but perhaps someone with a high ceiling.
Berselius mentioned that he may have more value because he’s one of the best hitters available and that may be true. At the same time, he may have less value seeing as his OPS is barely better than average since the beginning of the 2010 season. Factor in his defense and baserunning and he’s been a below average player since the beginning of last year. Since 2010, he has a .316 OBP.
My guess is that Ramirez would bring a Grade C prospect in return, but I’d also expect it to be a guy bordering on Grade B and someone with a high ceiling.
Comments
CCD with an Unobstructed View: http://obstructedview.net/unobstructed-views/cubs/old-style-to-exit-wrigley-field-following-2011-season.html
mb21Quote Reply
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/in-game-update-tyler-colvin-and-woba-by-count/
MishQuote Reply
His defense has looked weak tonight. Hopefully the Angels aren’t watching.
binkyQuote Reply
Pence + $1 mil ———–> Phillies
RHP Josh Zeid ———–> Astros
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]Pence + $1 mil ———–> Phillies
RHP Josh Zeid ———–> Astros[/quote]Is this an addendum to another post? Cuz I heard Singleton and Cosart are in the deal.
MishQuote Reply
Is this the answer to the post? No? How abou this,
http://www.thetowerlight.com/files/2010/11/fourLoko003-Casey.jpg
h/t CCD. Miss 1060W & wpbc.
Alvins AmygdalaQuote Reply
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Mish]Is this an addendum to another post? Cuz I heard Singleton and Cosart are in the deal.[/quote]What I just posted was the latest thing from MLBTR
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
2x TOOTBLAN tonight.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]What I just posted was the latest thing from MLBTR[/quote]They’re saying Cosart and Singleton as well.
binkyQuote Reply
[quote name=Rice Cube]2x TOOTBLAN tonight.[/quote]Was it just me or was Quade a better 3B coach?
binkyQuote Reply
[quote name=josh]They’re saying Cosart and Singleton as well.[/quote]That was an earlier report, no?
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=josh]Was it just me or was Quade a better 3B coach?[/quote]
Probably.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=Rice Cube]2x TOOTBLAN tonight.[/quote]This team literally does not do one thing well.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=mb21]CCD with an Unobstructed View: http://obstructedview.net/unobstructed-views/cubs/old-style-to-exit-wrigley-field-following-2011-season.html%5B/quote%5D
i feel like the guest conductor for the stretch.
now do i get to sit in the booth with len and bob?
wpbcQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]
[/quote]
On the topic of clown shoes, has anyone tried the Clementine White Ale? I’m not usually a fan of citrus beers but this should be a staple when every the weather is warm.
cdwQuote Reply
[quote name=wpbc]i feel like the guest conductor for the stretch.
now do i get to sit in the booth with len and bob?[/quote]Only if you let Bob tell you how he won a World Series by teaching his players the little things.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=wpbc]i feel like the guest conductor for the stretch.
now do i get to sit in the booth with len and bob?[/quote]
Only if you bring coleslaw
BerseliusQuote Reply
[quote name=cdw]On the topic of clown shoes, has anyone tried the Clementine White Ale? I’m not usually a fan of citrus beers but this should be a staple when every the weather is warm.[/quote]Haven’t tried that one. If you like white ales, Wittekerke is the goods.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Alvins Amygdala]Seriously though, the act of knowing if a pitch is good to swing at is an incredible skill. Once the pitch leaves the hand the batter has ~0.2s to decide if they will swing or not. Trying to teach a batter to pay attention to body motion before the pitch is thrown and then the initial vector is hard as fuck. That takes a lot of conditioning. It would need constant conditioning and the Cub just doesn’t seem too concerned about it. I think be able to teach that skill requires an Organizational philosophy where it is paramount.[/quote]
The ability to decide to swing or not in this short time has always amazed me.
cdwQuote Reply
Bob Brenly to Aramis Ramirez: don’t lose your bat.
Ouch (dying laughing)
Johnnie Cakes on a roll tonight.
Rodrigo RamirezQuote Reply
[quote name=Berselius]Only if you bring coleslaw[/quote]You’re out of here. This is literally the worst thing to every happen on the blog. I know exactly who you are.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
I wonder what the WAR is for DeJesus. It has to be like -34 this year.
Rodrigo RamirezQuote Reply
The Cards need to bat around or else Albert can’t get his 2000th hit tonight.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]Haven’t tried that one. If you like white ales, Wittekerke is the goods.[/quote]
I normally don’t care for white ales but lately the sun and heat have got me drinking bears that are…more refreshing. I’ll see if Total Wine as Wittekerke on my visit this weekend. Payday!
cdwQuote Reply
[quote name=Rodrigo Ramirez]I wonder what the WAR is for DeJesus. It has to be like -34 this year.[/quote]Coaching WAR would be a hilarious stat.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=cdw]I normally don’t care for white ales but lately the sun and heat have got me drinking bears that are…more refreshing. I’ll see if Total Wine as Wittekerke on my visit this weekend. Payday![/quote]
So…to state what everyone is thinking. Freud is a hack but yes, I’ve got football on my mind.
cdwQuote Reply
[quote name=Mish]http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/in-game-update-tyler-colvin-and-woba-by-count/[/quote]I didn’t read the article after I saw the gif. I don’t quite understand what the point is of a site like that taking one motherfucking pitch and writing an article about it. I could find 20 or 30 at-bats by Pujols this season in which he’s swung at shitty pitches.
Like I said, I didn’t RTFA so maybe there was some other point. Either way, the article lost me once they posted an image of one pitch.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]Coaching WAR would be a hilarious stat.[/quote]
The data for this has to be readily available. All it would take is some WOWOY, which is there for every manager in the history of mlb.
cdwQuote Reply
Pence on MLBTR:
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2011/07/phillies-acquire-hunter-pence.html
Says those three guys and a PTBNL
binkyQuote Reply
^^That’s the most recent on their site
binkyQuote Reply
[quote name=mb21]I didn’t read the article after I saw the gif. I don’t quite understand what the point is of a site like that taking one motherfucking pitch and writing an article about it. I could find 20 or 30 at-bats by Pujols this season in which he’s swung at shitty pitches.
Like I said, I didn’t RTFA so maybe there was some other point. Either way, the article lost me once they posted an image of one pitch.[/quote]
Fangraphs is a strange place these days.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=josh]Pence on MLBTR:
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2011/07/phillies-acquire-hunter-pence.html
Says those three guys and a PTBNL[/quote]2 Top-100 prospects for Pence is nice haul.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20110728&content_id=22438820&vkey=news_chc&c_id=chc&partnerId=rss_chc
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20110729&content_id=22473366&vkey=news_chc&c_id=chc&partnerId=rss_chc
It’s a soap opera. Even the players are dumber than shit.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=mb21]I didn’t read the article after I saw the gif. I don’t quite understand what the point is of a site like that taking one motherfucking pitch and writing an article about it. I could find 20 or 30 at-bats by Pujols this season in which he’s swung at shitty pitches.
Like I said, I didn’t RTFA so maybe there was some other point. Either way, the article lost me once they posted an image of one pitch.[/quote]Seems unfair. Pitch selection I think is pure instinct. I think you can only do it on the major league level if you’ve built your way up through all the previous stages. That said, anyone whose made it to even the MiLB presumably has demonstrated the skill to a fair degree of success. In other words, it starts with a talent and is refined over years of practice and repetition. It may not even be well understood what exercises will improve pitch selection and which ones will hurt it. Most MLB teams seem to go more on of a trial and error, or at least on who, coaching wise, has been successful rather than using any kind of scientific analysis or anything. I’m not even sure how you’d do such a study, however.
binkyQuote Reply
[quote name=mb21]http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20110728&content_id=22438820&vkey=news_chc&c_id=chc&partnerId=rss_chc
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20110729&content_id=22473366&vkey=news_chc&c_id=chc&partnerId=rss_chc
It’s a soap opera. Even the players are dumber than shit.[/quote]if he won’t be traded, what’s the point of even keeping him on the team? Do the Cubs get some compensation if they lose him to free agency after this year? I really don’t know the rules there.
binkyQuote Reply
Aramis Ramirez yesterday:
Today:
So, while trying to say Hendry wants me to stay here and I want to stay here I said if a trade comes my way we’ll see because if they’re rebuilding I don’t fit in so we’ll see.
This organization is laughable.
mb21Quote Reply
All that screams “Let’s see what happens” (dying laughing)
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=josh]if he won’t be traded, what’s the point of even keeping him on the team? Do the Cubs get some compensation if they lose him to free agency after this year? I really don’t know the rules there.[/quote]
They have to keep him on the team until the offseason. Then they must offer him arbitration and he has to decline it to earn the compensation pick were he to sign elsewhere.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
It’s Harden and Gregg all over again. This FO is stuck on stupid.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
I agree with you, Josh. We can give these MLB players who lack patience all the shit in the world, but the reality is that these are some of the most disciplined hitters on the planet. I think that’s something that bothers me sometimes. In what other profession does the top .1% get called lazy, stupid, pieces of shit, slow, worthless and so on and so forth?
If I was Koyie Hill and somebody told me I sucked, I’d pick up a baseball and throw it 90 mph right at them telling them to catch it. Seriously. I would literally pick the ball up and throw it right at them. Not at their head. Not at their ass either. Ribs. Right at their fucking ribs. And yes, I’d pay whatever hospital bills necessary because I have the money to do that. (dying laughing)
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=josh]Seems unfair. Pitch selection I think is pure instinct. I think you can only do it on the major league level if you’ve built your way up through all the previous stages. That said, anyone whose made it to even the MiLB presumably has demonstrated the skill to a fair degree of success. In other words, it starts with a talent and is refined over years of practice and repetition. It may not even be well understood what exercises will improve pitch selection and which ones will hurt it. Most MLB teams seem to go more on of a trial and error, or at least on who, coaching wise, has been successful rather than using any kind of scientific analysis or anything. I’m not even sure how you’d do such a study, however.[/quote]
I would start with drills that reward a player for trying to identify the motions that indicate if a pitch is a FB or not. Just put them in the box and have the pitcher throw a towel ((dying laughing)) and have them swing if the pitch is a FB or not. Don’t let making contact factor in. You have to try to get the decision to be based on experience and not a “conscious ” decision.
cdwQuote Reply
You can’t blame the front office if Ramirez said he won’t accept a trade. As Hendry said, that’s Ramirez’s right. He’s earned it, but there’s nothing the Cubs can do about it.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=Rice Cube]They have to keep him on the team until the offseason. Then they must offer him arbitration and he has to decline it to earn the compensation pick were he to sign elsewhere.[/quote]So if they don’t want him back and think he’ll take arbitration (which as I understand it often results in a payraise)….just cut him and move on. After the trade deadline, of course. On the other hand, who else is going to play 3rd?
Nevermind.
binkyQuote Reply
[quote name=mb21]You can’t blame the front office if Ramirez said he won’t accept a trade. As Hendry said, that’s Ramirez’s right. He’s earned it, but there’s nothing the Cubs can do about it.[/quote]
In Hendry’s mind that is an inalienable right.
cdwQuote Reply
[quote name=cdw]I would start with drills that reward a player for trying to identify the motions that indicate if a pitch is a FB or not. Just put them in the box and have the pitcher throw a towel ((dying laughing)) and have them swing if the pitch is a FB or not. Don’t let making contact factor in. You have to try to get the decision to be based on experience and not a “conscious ” decision.[/quote]I like the story about how Bonds learned to recognize pitched at a very young age. His father would throw tennis balls to him. He couldn’t swing the bat. The tennis balls were numbered and Barry had to tell his father which number was on the ball thrown to him.
Don’t know if that makes any difference or not, but that would certainly help with picking up spin. Presumably it would allow you to have a better idea where the ball is going to go because of that spin.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=cdw]I would start with drills that reward a player for trying to identify the motions that indicate if a pitch is a FB or not. Just put them in the box and have the pitcher throw a towel ((dying laughing)) and have them swing if the pitch is a FB or not. Don’t let making contact factor in. You have to try to get the decision to be based on experience and not a “conscious ” decision.[/quote]That seems logical, but does every pitcher have the same arm motion? I really don’t know. I’m pretty much basing my knowledge of hitting on videogames.
binkyQuote Reply
[quote name=mb21]If I was Koyie Hill and somebody told me I sucked, I’d pick up a baseball and throw it 90 mph right at them telling them to catch it. Seriously. I would literally pick the ball up and throw it right at them. Not at their head. Not at their ass either. Ribs. Right at their fucking ribs. And yes, I’d pay whatever hospital bills necessary because I have the money to do that. (dying laughing)[/quote](dying laughing) I wish I was an mlb GM. I’d put you on the roster just to see that a couple times. I’d also pick up the hospital bills. (dying laughing)
cwolfQuote Reply
Ultimately, how you teach plate discipline is a question about how do you teach instinct. Not instinct from the pre-determined, genetic level (Personally, I don’t believe an person experiences don’t shape their instincts and hence differentiating between soley inherited traits and learned traits is very hard to distinguis.). But how can you teach them the appropriate variables to look for and then have that become a reaction.
cdwQuote Reply
[quote name=mb21]I like the story about how Bonds learned to recognize pitched at a very young age. His father would throw tennis balls to him. He couldn’t swing the bat. The tennis balls were numbered and Barry had to tell his father which number was on the ball thrown to him.
Don’t know if that makes any difference or not, but that would certainly help with picking up spin. Presumably it would allow you to have a better idea where the ball is going to go because of that spin.[/quote]That’s what I’m saying. I almost think you can’t learn it if you don’t start very young. You may not need formal training, but you’d have to have a good instinct for it. I don’t know, though, not many little leaguers have a curve ball. I guess that’s where having really good competition to play against can be a big benefit.
binkyQuote Reply
[quote name=mb21]You can’t blame the front office if Ramirez said he won’t accept a trade. As Hendry said, that’s Ramirez’s right. He’s earned it, but there’s nothing the Cubs can do about it.[/quote]we can call the FO stupid all we want but this has been coming ever since the Cubs went for it in ’07. Paying the reaper is a bitch.
JManQuote Reply
[quote name=mb21]I like the story about how Bonds learned to recognize pitched at a very young age. His father would throw tennis balls to him. He couldn’t swing the bat. The tennis balls were numbered and Barry had to tell his father which number was on the ball thrown to him.
Don’t know if that makes any difference or not, but that would certainly help with picking up spin. Presumably it would allow you to have a better idea where the ball is going to go because of that spin.[/quote]
That is brilliant b/c it takes the reward of hitting the ball out of the equation. Even better would be identifying the number without the extra time of the ball leaving the hand to home plate.
No wonder Bonds had such a great eye. Incredible. His father was a great baseball player and a great teacher.
cdwQuote Reply
Patience is also a skill like hitting for power is. We can’t teach players to hit for maybe a little more power by having them swing in a slightly different way. I’m sure there are techniques we can use to teach patience. However, just a guy without power is unlikely to ever become a power hitter, a guy without patience is unlikely to ever become a guy who works deep counts takes a lot of walks.
mb21Quote Reply
Shouldn’t have thrown Theriot that slider. Doesn’t Marmol know Theriot is a bad fastball hitter?
ACTQuote Reply
[quote name=JMan]we can call the FO stupid all we want but this has been coming ever since the Cubs went for it in ’07. Paying the reaper is a bitch.[/quote]Well put, JMan.
mb21Quote Reply
(dying laughing) @ the “Theriot gapper”.. I also love his Little League player safe signal as he gets up from his slide.
cwolfQuote Reply
It’s all reps, I understand, but it has to be reps doing the right thing. If you practice wrong, you’ll do it poorly. That’s true of anything. I’m just wondering if there are any teams that are particularly good at taking players with weak plate skills and improving them beyond the normal progression? Assuming plate discipline is measureable, that seems like worthwhile information.
binkyQuote Reply
[quote name=josh]That seems logical, but does every pitcher have the same arm motion? I really don’t know. I’m pretty much basing my knowledge of hitting on videogames.[/quote]
Ideally you would have a random selection of BP pitchers but I don’t know how feasible that would be. If the batter could learn tells/motions from one pitcher they would be better at learning those of other pitchers though.
cdwQuote Reply
[quote name=mb21]Patience is also a skill like hitting for power is. We can’t teach players to hit for maybe a little more power by having them swing in a slightly different way. I’m sure there are techniques we can use to teach patience. However, just a guy without power is unlikely to ever become a power hitter, a guy without patience is unlikely to ever become a guy who works deep counts takes a lot of walks.[/quote]Right and assuming this is is correct(which I believe so) I think the Cubs as ORG just don’t draft/scout for patience as a primary skill. That seemed to change this year but Wilken has a history of athletes first.
JManQuote Reply
[quote name=JMan]we can call the FO stupid all we want but this has been coming ever since the Cubs went for it in ’07. Paying the reaper is a bitch.[/quote]I agree a million percent, but since we all know that, why did we trade prospects for a medium pitcher? I know you have to contend, but they could have made just as passable a contention without Garza. Why aren’t we now trying to rebuild? Those are the kinds of things we can blame the FO for.
binkyQuote Reply
[quote name=mb21]You can’t blame the front office if Ramirez said he won’t accept a trade. As Hendry said, that’s Ramirez’s right. He’s earned it, but there’s nothing the Cubs can do about it.[/quote]But Ramirez is just doing this to make sure he gets to be a FA. And HEndry’s letting himself get played like a fiddle.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=ACT]Shouldn’t have thrown Theriot that slider. Doesn’t Marmol know Theriot is a bad fastball hitter?[/quote]Apparently not, seeing as he’s yet again thrown him a hittable breaking pitch.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]But Ramirez is just doing this to make sure he gets to be a FA. And HEndry’s letting himself get played like a fiddle.[/quote]He may be shopping him hard behind the scenes and not liking the deals he’s seeing.
BTW: Marmol just had an extremely shitty inning.
binkyQuote Reply
Josh, evi[quote name=josh]That’s what I’m saying. I almost think you can’t learn it if you don’t start very young. You may not need formal training, but you’d have to have a good instinct for it. I don’t know, though, not many little leaguers have a curve ball. I guess that’s where having really good competition to play against can be a big benefit.[/quote][quote name=josh]That’s what I’m saying. I almost think you can’t learn it if you don’t start very young. You may not need formal training, but you’d have to have a good instinct for it. I don’t know, though, not many little leaguers have a curve ball. I guess that’s where having really good competition to play against can be a big benefit.[/quote]
There is evidence that skills such as pitch reconigtion can be learned later in life. But learning during brian development is normally better. The real skill is if the brain can develop more placid such that it is better at transferring images/motions/environmental cues into reaction/emotional decisions rather than prefrontal cortex ones.
cdwQuote Reply
[quote name=mb21]Patience is also a skill like hitting for power is. We can’t teach players to hit for maybe a little more power by having them swing in a slightly different way. I’m sure there are techniques we can use to teach patience. However, just a guy without power is unlikely to ever become a power hitter, a guy without patience is unlikely to ever become a guy who works deep counts takes a lot of walks.[/quote]
THIS.
cdwQuote Reply
It’s all academic until Rami is actually offered a trade and actually accepts or rejects it.
binkyQuote Reply
[quote name=josh]It’s all reps, I understand, but it has to be reps doing the right thing. If you practice wrong, you’ll do it poorly. That’s true of anything. I’m just wondering if there are any teams that are particularly good at taking players with weak plate skills and improving them beyond the normal progression? Assuming plate discipline is measureable, that seems like worthwhile information.[/quote]
It’s about choosing the appropriate incentive/reward for learning. Then beating that into instinct.
cdwQuote Reply
Sandberg swears to this day that he developed power because Jim Frey tweaked his swing.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]But Ramirez is just doing this to make sure he gets to be a FA. And HEndry’s letting himself get played like a fiddle.[/quote]Ramirez is a free agent anyway, MO. There is no playing.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]Sandberg swears to this day that he developed power because Jim Frey tweaked his swing.[/quote]
He is probably right. But learning when to swing for power and not kill OBP is decision based. How was Sandberg’s decision making (dying laughing)
cdwQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]Sandberg swears to this day that he developed power because Jim Frey tweaked his swing.[/quote]We saw awhile back with Theriot that a tweak in the swing can make a difference. I know it was only a month and he wasn’t going to keep hitting that many each month, but he had made some changes and was selling out for power.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=mb21]Patience is also a skill like hitting for power is. We can’t teach players to hit for maybe a little more power by having them swing in a slightly different way. I’m sure there are techniques we can use to teach patience. However, just a guy without power is unlikely to ever become a power hitter, a guy without patience is unlikely to ever become a guy who works deep counts takes a lot of walks.[/quote]Probably true. I think it’s worth investigating further, though. A lot of MLB coaching seems to be based on anecdotal evidence, and that goes both for and against.
binkyQuote Reply
[quote name=josh]I agree a million percent, but since we all know that, why did we trade prospects for a medium pitcher? I know you have to contend, but they could have made just as passable a contention without Garza. Why aren’t we now trying to rebuild? Those are the kinds of things we can blame the FO for.[/quote]depends on the 3-year plan Hendry has in mind. From a marketing standpoint it shows the team is going for it and the avg fan just eats up whatever is messaged. however the Cubs likely saw an opportunity to bring in a pitcher that could be a 1 or 2 on the team over the next few years while developing players as well as shedding some dead-weight and signing more productive players.
I honestly think they are planning more for next year and 2013.
If we look at what the team gave up for Garza it amounts to basically Hak Ju Lee. He’s a top 50 prospect but hasn’t reached AA yet and I’m fairly sure he still has a small chance of reaching the majors let alone being productive.
JManQuote Reply
[quote name=josh]It’s all academic until Rami is actually offered a trade and actually accepts or rejects it.[/quote]Yeah. Who knows if he would or not? Sounds like he’s not real sure, which isn’t surprising after being in Chicago so long. I guess to me it just doesn’t matter one way or another. This organization has an organization full of players the Cubs would get in return for Ramirez. I doubt one more is going to help.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=mb21]We saw awhile back with Theriot that a tweak in the swing can make a difference. I know it was only a month and he wasn’t going to keep hitting that many each month, but he had made some changes and was selling out for power.[/quote]Like how Ichiro basically swings all for contact and doesn’t even try to hit for power. Except in batting practice, according to the Mariner’s announcers.
binkyQuote Reply
So Albert —-> 2000 hits, huh? Missed it while walking the dog, didn’t think he’s get another AB (dying laughing)
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]Sandberg swears to this day that he developed power because Jim Frey tweaked his swing.[/quote]did he develop power or did finally find a way to use his power? Like Jose Bautista. Still Sandberg and Bautista are the exception.
JManQuote Reply
[quote name=mb21]Yeah. Who knows if he would or not? Sounds like he’s not real sure, which isn’t surprising after being in Chicago so long. I guess to me it just doesn’t matter one way or another. This organization has an organization full of players the Cubs would get in return for Ramirez. I doubt one more is going to help.[/quote]Sounds to me like Ramirez is being coached very well by his agent.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=JMan]depends on the 3-year plan Hendry has in mind. From a marketing standpoint it shows the team is going for it and the avg fan just eats up whatever is messaged. however the Cubs likely saw an opportunity to bring in a pitcher that could be a 1 or 2 on the team over the next few years while developing players as well as shedding some dead-weight and signing more productive players.
I honestly think they are planning more for next year and 2013.
If we look at what the team gave up for Garza it amounts to basically Hak Ju Lee. He’s a top 50 prospect but hasn’t reached AA yet and I’m fairly sure he still has a small chance of reaching the majors let alone being productive.[/quote]The 3-year plan is important to keep in mind. The Cubs are better off entering this offseason than they were last offseason. They have a really good starting pitcher in Garza so rather than needing 2 really good ones, they only need 1. They have a lot of payroll coming off the books this year and next year. Garza will still be around.
I hated the trade at the time, but I actually think Garza has pitched well enough to justify the trade. I think we can expect him to continue to pitch well enough. So I’ll give the Cubs credit for that one. They saw something in Garza that the advanced stats didn’t see and so far they are without a doubt right. They probably gave up a little too much, but whatever.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]Sounds to me like Ramirez is being coached very well by his agent.[/quote]
The power of incentives. Not so lazy when it comes to easy to learning impacting memory.
cdwQuote Reply
[quote name=JMan]did he develop power or did finally find a way to use his power? Like Jose Bautista. Still Sandberg and Bautista are the exception.[/quote]Sandberg says Frey showed him how to keep his hands in and get around on, as well as get the barrel of the bat on, pitches on the inner third. He says he never hit for much power before then, but once Frey showed him how to do it, his power came along.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=mb21]Yeah. Who knows if he would or not? Sounds like he’s not real sure, which isn’t surprising after being in Chicago so long. I guess to me it just doesn’t matter one way or another. This organization has an organization full of players the Cubs would get in return for Ramirez. I doubt one more is going to help.[/quote]If they can’t get squat for him, then, yeah, I agree there’s no point. Really, there’s basically nothing to watch the rest of the season, unless they call up B Jax, maybe.
binkyQuote Reply
[quote name=cdw]The power of incentives. Not so lazy when it comes to easy to learning impacting memory.[/quote]I’ve never bought that Ramirez is lazy. I think that’s a piece of flimsy narrative drummed up by lazy beat writers and sold to a fanbase with a unique case of herd mentality.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=josh]It’s all academic until Rami is actually offered a trade and actually accepts or rejects it.[/quote]Definitely true. Also, Ramirez doesn’t usually talk to the media much and I get the impression he doesn’t care very much about them so I wouldn’t set any of his quotes in stone.
cwolfQuote Reply
[quote name=mb21]The 3-year plan is important to keep in mind. The Cubs are better off entering this offseason than they were last offseason. They have a really good starting pitcher in Garza so rather than needing 2 really good ones, they only need 1. They have a lot of payroll coming off the books this year and next year. Garza will still be around.
I hated the trade at the time, but I actually think Garza has pitched well enough to justify the trade. I think we can expect him to continue to pitch well enough. So I’ll give the Cubs credit for that one. They saw something in Garza that the advanced stats didn’t see and so far they are without a doubt right. They probably gave up a little too much, but whatever.[/quote]
Did they see the ability to change is fly ball style and teach ground balls? If so, the Cub knows how to teach something right.
cdwQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]Sandberg says Frey showed him how to keep his hands in and get around on, as well as get the barrel of the bat on, pitches on the inner third. He says he never hit for much power before then, but once Frey showed him how to do it, his power came along.[/quote]Didn’t Ted Williams write a book on how power was all from bat speed, rather than strength?
binkyQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]I’ve never bought that Ramirez is lazy. I think that’s a piece of flimsy narrative drummed up by lazy beat writers and sold to a fanbase with a unique case of herd mentality.[/quote]
I forgot the /Sullivan tag.
cdwQuote Reply
[quote name=josh]If they can’t get squat for him, then, yeah, I agree there’s no point. Really, there’s basically nothing to watch the rest of the season, unless they call up B Jax, maybe.[/quote]If the Astros can get the prospect package they did for Pence, the Cubs should be able to get something decent for Ramirez, even if he is a rental.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]Sounds to me like Ramirez is being coached very well by his agent.[/quote]I’m sure he is, but that’s the benefit of being of a 10 and 5 guy. You have leverage. I’m guessing if the Red Sox suddenly needed a 3rd baseman and called the Cubs that Ramirez would accept a trade. I doubt he’d accept one to a number of others who still consider themselves contenders.
I think it’s interesting that Hendry said he wouldn’t be traded by the deadline. He didn’t say he wouldn’t be traded. He just won’t be traded by the deadline. Reminds me of DLee last season.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=josh]Didn’t Ted Williams write a book on how power was all from bat speed, rather than strength?[/quote]Ted Williams said a lot of things about hitting, but I think they only apply to him. (dying laughing) That fucking guy was a freak of nature.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
Aram and Z have been my favorite players for years. It pains me they didn’t reach the WS while they were in their prime.
/Somewhat hyperbolic
cdwQuote Reply
[quote name=mb21]I’m sure he is, but that’s the benefit of being of a 10 and 5 guy. You have leverage. I’m guessing if the Red Sox suddenly needed a 3rd baseman and called the Cubs that Ramirez would accept a trade. I doubt he’d accept one to a number of others who still consider themselves contenders.
I think it’s interesting that Hendry said he wouldn’t be traded by the deadline. He didn’t say he wouldn’t be traded. He just won’t be traded by the deadline. Reminds me of DLee last season.[/quote]I still think LAA is the most likely landing spot.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=cdw]Did they see the ability to change is fly ball style and teach ground balls? If so, the Cub knows how to teach something right.[/quote]Remember early this season when Garza was struggling and he said he was going to go back to doing things how he always had? So yeah, the Cubs obviously saw something they wanted to change. Garza later admitted he shouldn’t have said that and was going to stick to the plan.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=mb21]I’m sure he is, but that’s the benefit of being of a 10 and 5 guy. You have leverage. I’m guessing if the Red Sox suddenly needed a 3rd baseman and called the Cubs that Ramirez would accept a trade. I doubt he’d accept one to a number of others who still consider themselves contenders.
I think it’s interesting that Hendry said he wouldn’t be traded by the deadline. He didn’t say he wouldn’t be traded. He just won’t be traded by the deadline. Reminds me of DLee last season.[/quote]
I’d watch baseball again if ARam was traded to a contender.
cdwQuote Reply
[quote name=mb21]Remember early this season when Garza was struggling and he said he was going to go back to doing things how he always had? So yeah, the Cubs obviously saw something they wanted to change. Garza later admitted he shouldn’t have said that and was going to stick to the plan.[/quote]
blind squirrel —-> nut
/b’ed
cdwQuote Reply
I also wouldn’t be surprised to see some team put in a waiver claim on Ramirez on or after August 1st and the Cubs just let the team take him.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=cdw]Aram and Z have been my favorite players for years. It pains me they didn’t reach the WS while they were in their prime.
[/quote]My two favorite Cubs also. I’d love to see one or both get a ring before they are done. Obviously, this would be on a team other than the Cubs but that’s OK with me at this point.
cwolfQuote Reply
[quote name=cdw]Did they see the ability to change is fly ball style and teach ground balls? If so, the Cub knows how to teach something right.[/quote]He’s throwing fewer fastballs than in previous years. http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=3340&position=P#pitchtype
ACTQuote Reply
[quote name=mb21]I also wouldn’t be surprised to see some team put in a waiver claim on Ramirez on or after August 1st and the Cubs just let the team take him.[/quote]
That seems like the worst option considering that they could try to get the draft pick as a last resort.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=ACT]He’s throwing fewer fastballs than in previous years. http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=3340&position=P#pitchtype%5B/quote%5D
Wow. That is a dramatic change in pitch selection.
cdwQuote Reply
[quote name=mb21]I also wouldn’t be surprised to see some team put in a waiver claim on Ramirez on or after August 1st and the Cubs just let the team take him.[/quote]That would seem to be a foolish thing to do.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=cdw]Wow. That is a dramatic change in pitch selection.[/quote]I still think he needs to throw a few fewer strikes.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Rice Cube]That seems like the worst option considering that they could try to get the draft pick as a last resort.[/quote]I’d be surprised if they did that. Depending on what their payroll is going to be next year, there are better ways to spend $15-16 million than on Ramirez. If you offer him arbitration and he accepts, that’s what you’ll be paying him. The question the Cubs have to figure out, or the gamble they have to make is on whether or not he’ll get a better deal. Furthermore, knowing he wants to stay in Chicago probably makes it more likely he’d accept arbitration.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=mb21]I’d be surprised if they did that. Depending on what their payroll is going to be next year, there are better ways to spend $15-16 million than on Ramirez. If you offer him arbitration and he accepts, that’s what you’ll be paying him. The question the Cubs have to figure out, or the gamble they have to make is on whether or not he’ll get a better deal. Furthermore, knowing he wants to stay in Chicago probably makes it more likely he’d accept arbitration.[/quote]
That’s fair. Think they just buy him out and try to sign him to a cheaper per annum deal then?
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=cdw]Wow. That is a dramatic change in pitch selection.[/quote]
His O-swing and O-contact dropped in line with the pitch selection. I guess that is what the Cubs expected.
Credit given = Credit due
cdwQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]That would seem to be a foolish thing to do.[/quote]It depends on arbitration like I mentioned in #103. I wouldn’t offer him arbitration because i think there’s enough reason to think he’d accept it. I’m not sure he’d get a better deal. He definitely wouldn’t beat the annual salary. I also think he wants to stay in Chicago.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=Rice Cube]That’s fair. Think they just buy him out and try to sign him to a cheaper per annum deal then?[/quote]I’m sure they’d like to, but would Ramirez accept a cheap enough deal to allow them to make the other necessary additions?
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=mb21]It depends on arbitration like I mentioned in #103. I wouldn’t offer him arbitration because i think there’s enough reason to think he’d accept it. I’m not sure he’d get a better deal. He definitely wouldn’t beat the annual salary. I also think he wants to stay in Chicago.[/quote]I think you’re buying way too much of what Rodrigo is selling.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=mb21]I’m sure they’d like to, but would Ramirez accept a cheap enough deal to allow them to make the other necessary additions?[/quote]
Is Jeff Baker untouchable?
cdwQuote Reply
I guess it depends on whether Hendry can snag a handshake “decline arb” deal out of Ramirez. Then he can test the market, and sign with the Cubs if no one else bites.
Lots of ifs there though.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=cdw]His O-swing and O-contact dropped in line with the pitch selection. I guess that is what the Cubs expected.
Credit given = Credit due[/quote]I don’t really don’t know what they saw, if anything, but I do know he’s a better pitcher now than he was when the Cubs acquired him. I’m sure it’s a little luck and also something they saw that they were confident would make him better.
mb21Quote Reply
BJax —> triple shy of cycle
/media cliche’
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=mb21]I’d be surprised if they did that. Depending on what their payroll is going to be next year, there are better ways to spend $15-16 million than on Ramirez. If you offer him arbitration and he accepts, that’s what you’ll be paying him. The question the Cubs have to figure out, or the gamble they have to make is on whether or not he’ll get a better deal. Furthermore, knowing he wants to stay in Chicago probably makes it more likely he’d accept arbitration.[/quote]
He accepts 15-16 million though right? No way he turns that down? What is he supposed to make if the Cub picks up the option?
cdwQuote Reply
[quote name=cdw]Is Jeff Baker untouchable?[/quote]I’m pretty sure those are synonyms.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=cdw]He accepts 15-16 million though right? No way he turns that down? What is he supposed to make if the Cub picks up the option?[/quote]
The option is $16MM.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
The only reason Ram would turn down that kind of money is for a multi year deal.
/Guessing and out of baseball loop.
cdwQuote Reply
[quote name=cdw]The only reason Ram would turn down that kind of money is for a multi year deal.
/Guessing and out of baseball loop.[/quote]Yep. He wants FA, because this is likely his last shot at a multi-year deal. I doubt Hendry can or will give him that.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]I’m pretty sure those are synonyms.[/quote]Ram hasn’t fallen off that bad has he?
cdwQuote Reply
Sounds like he gets bought out then, at best?
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]I think you’re buying way too much of what Rodrigo is selling.[/quote]He’s probably a 2 WAR player entering next season. That’s about $10 million or less. On the free agent market, Ramirez is worth $15 million over 2 years. Maybe $20 million over 3 years. He can get $15 million in one year with the Cubs if they offer him arbitration.
If teams move him to DH as they just may, he’s worth even less.
That’s the reason I don’t offer it.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=cdw]He accepts 15-16 million though right? No way he turns that down? What is he supposed to make if the Cub picks up the option?[/quote]Yep. Didn’t even think about the option. No chance the Cubs offer arbitration because they’d more than likely end up paying him $17-18 million total next season rather than the $16 million they’d pay if they just exercised the option.
Unless they’re relatively certain he’ll decline, there’s no sense in offering him arbitration.
mb21Quote Reply
$2 million buyout plus $15-16 million in arbitration
mb21Quote Reply
Or $16 million option
mb21Quote Reply
Stupid Kevin Gregg.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]Yep. He wants FA, because this is likely his last shot at a multi-year deal. I doubt Hendry can or will give him that.[/quote]
I think he wants his option picked up. He’ll make a lot more money if his option is picked up than if the Cubs decline it. If the Cubs offer arbitration then he makes even more than he’d get if they just picked it up. Ramirez, more than anything, is hoping the Cubs decline his option AND offer him arbitration.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=cdw]Ram hasn’t fallen off that bad has he?[/quote]No, but Hendry has Baker on his list of untouchables.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=mb21]I think he wants his option picked up. He’ll make a lot more money if his option is picked up than if the Cubs decline it. If the Cubs offer arbitration then he makes even more than he’d get if they just picked it up. Ramirez, more than anything, is hoping the Cubs decline his option AND offer him arbitration.[/quote]I just don’t see it that way. I think he wants years. Almost all guys his age want years, especially in MLB, where the contracts are guaranteed.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Rice Cube]Stupid Kevin Gregg.[/quote]Who was it that called him Groggles? I still get a chuckle out of that.
binkyQuote Reply
[quote name=mb21]I think he wants his option picked up. He’ll make a lot more money if his option is picked up than if the Cubs decline it. If the Cubs offer arbitration then he makes even more than he’d get if they just picked it up. Ramirez, more than anything, is hoping the Cubs decline his option AND offer him arbitration.[/quote]Actually I think ramirez is one of the few geniune players and would take a 2/24 contract with a vesting 3rd year option. Didn’t he turn down like 20-30M to stay with the Cubs with his current contract?
When he said he wants to stay in chicago because of his family I actually believe him which is saying a lot because most players are usually negotiating when they speak to the media.
JManQuote Reply
I see Boehner acted as homo economist.
/political talk will stop now
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]No, but Hendry has Baker on his list of untouchables.[/quote]
Right. Equally likely.
cdwQuote Reply
Am i crazy to think trying to pick up Wandy Rodriguez is a good idea?
right now I wonder if the new market efficiency is turning over prospects for guys under control for more than a year. I’m sure I’m insane for thinking this but I’d probably trade Jackson/McNutt for Michael Bourn or Dom Brown.
JManQuote Reply
To make it a bit more clear; my line of thinking is that teams over-value prospects and so gaining a guy that isn’t a super-star but is pretty good and under club control for 2 or more years is worth giving up some “highly” rated prospects for because they aren’t likely to pan out.
I’m probably wrong here though so I fully expect someone to show me the study that proves this incorrect.
JManQuote Reply
[quote name=JMan]Am i crazy to think trying to pick up Wandy Rodriguez is a good idea?
right now I wonder if the new market efficiency is turning over prospects for guys under control for more than a year. I’m sure I’m insane for thinking this but I’d probably trade Jackson/McNutt for Michael Bourn or Dom Brown.[/quote]
Cost control for prospects (5 years) > Cost control for proven above replacement (2 years)? That may very well be inefficient.
cdwQuote Reply
[quote name=josh]Who was it that called him Groggles? I still get a chuckle out of that.[/quote]
Don’t recall, but he was able to help put some distance between Baltimore and the Cubs…
Derrek Lee had a great game.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=cdw]Cost control for prospects (5 years) > Cost control for proven above replacement (2 years)? That may very well be inefficient.[/quote]If you have a great marketing and scouting department you can absolutely take advantage. Like how sometimes Yankee and Red Sox prospects can be slightly over-rated by certain people just because of the system they are in.
JManQuote Reply
New Pic of the Day up: http://obstructedview.net/chicago-cubs/articles/ov-pic-of-the-day-this-woman-wasnt-born-the-last-time-the-cubs-won-the-world-series.html
Aisle424Quote Reply