I am used to seeing some pretty awful stuff written in the Sun-Times. After years of employing Jay Marriotti, you pretty much just expected ooze to seep from the newspaper, but you get used to the usual players. Telander lives off his reputation and phones in the occasional column consisting of one word paragraphs, shallow analysis and stale jokes. Ginnetti pumps out puff pieces that make Al Yellon's interviewing skills look hard-hitting. Gordo pretty much just waits for Sullivan to write something and then changes the Zambrano jokes a little.
But I happened upon a piece the Sun-Times published that makes them all look like Mensa members. Forgive me for making you read it too, but I figured we should all suffer together.
I give you Gary Karton, ex-Cubs fan and speechwriter from Washington, DC, and his disappointment in the Cubs almost-hiring of Theo Epstein:
Root for Theo if you want, but I want my Cubs back
We're only at the headline and my head already hurts.
I never thought the day would come when I’d actually be rooting against the Cubs. But that’s what I’m forced to do now that Theo Epstein is coming to Chicago.
Wow, I wonder what Theo Epstein did to this guy as a child that would make him disavow his favorite team. If it involves anything less than Theo killing his dad and framing him for the murder, I'm going to be pretty disappointed.
This won’t be easy. I practically grew up at Wrigley Field. When I was a reporter for the Washington Post, I was known as the “guy in the Cubs hat.”
That is the worst nickname ever. Maybe Theo is the one who gave him the nickname.
But Epstein isn’t the right guy for the Cubs. I could root for anyone but Epstein.
Is Karton a German name?
Don’t get me wrong, Epstein was a great GM for the Red Sox and if I were rooting for him to be the first GM in the Hall of Fame, I’d be psyched right now. If he can do for Chicago what he did for Boston, it will be great for him personally. A major part of the headline will be: “Epstein leads Red Sox and Cubs to World Series victories.” But after everything Cubs fans have been through, that’s not good enough for me.
Wait, wait, WAIT! First of all, what is this first GM in the Hall of Fame nonsense? I'm too lazy to bother looking it up, but I KNOW Pat Gillick is in there and Andy MacPhail's dad and grandpa are both in there too, so already your credibility is hanging by a string. (And who fact checks stuff at the Sun-Times?) But let's just move past that and get to the part where the Cubs hired someone you support for the Hall of Fame as a baseball executive and THAT'S NOT GOOD ENOUGH FOR YOU! Did you want them to dig up Branch Rickey or something?
And what about if the Cubs don’t win it all? When I was covering the inaugural season of the Washington Nationals in 2005, I ran into Mark Grace and asked him what was so special about playing for the Cubs.
Oh holy hell, if he says anything other than banging chicks he met at Bernie's on a nightly basis, he is fucking lying.
“I played on some bad teams,” Grace said. “But if you gave the fans an honest effort and busted your butt, they loved you win or lose. And it’s not that way everywhere.”
So Gary apparently enjoys the shitty teams that really, really try hard. This guy definitely sleeps in a Sam Fuld jersey every night.
Sadly, it’s not that way in Chicago anymore either.
And you can't take a trolley for a nickel to get into the nickelodeon for a matinee anymore either. Yeah, we decided we wanted to see some winning teams if they were going to charge us the same prices as the Red Sox and Yankees, sue us.
Several years ago, I was at a game with a few buddies.
There is no way in hell you have any friends that voluntarily go places with you.
The Cubs had already started to change. Instead of trying to win through a solid farm system, scouting, and patience (see Texas, Tampa Bay, and Epstein’s Red Sox),
When did the Cubs ever try to do that? Remember your hero, Mark Grace? That was the last position player of any quality to come out of the Cubs system. That was 1988.
they started going after high-priced free agents like Alfonso Soriano and big-name managers like Lou Piniella. The team had one of the top payrolls in the league, but it wasn’t translating into victories.
What were you watching? I was watching back-to-back division titles. In fact, the 2008 team was probably the best Cubs team in our lives.
That’s when I heard it. I’ve been to literally hundreds of games at Wrigley Field, but never heard this sound before.
“What is that?” I asked my friend.
“Boos,” he answered.
OK, I'll forgive not knowing that there are at least a few GMs in the Hall of Fame, I'll overlook the fact that you take anything Mark Grace says seriously, and I'll even grant that you could have meant that the high-priced free agents didn't translate into playoff victories, but I will NOT sit here and lend an ounce of credibility to someone who doesn't recognize the sound of boos when he hears them.
And that’s the first time I realized the Cubs were changing. Wrigley Field used to be a place to be part of something unique.
Over one hundred years without a World Series victory is as unique as it gets.
There was honor to being a Cubs fan.
I'm checking to see if "Gary Karton" is somehow an anagram for "Alvin Yellon."
We might not have been rewarded by World Series victories, but what we got was more valuable.
Lots of free time in October to enjoy the fall colors?
We got optimism. And perseverance.
And brain damage.
We believed that even though the Cubs didn’t win this year, maybe they would next year. And that was enough to keep us going.
This is seriously the biggest load of crap I have ever read that wasn't published at Bleed Cubbie Blue, but I still fail to see how any of this nonsense makes the hiring of Theo Epstein a bad thing.
The team might wear the same uniform and live in the same house, but its essence is totally different. And so is that of its fans: Look what happened to Bartman.
What the fuck does that even mean? The essence of Cubs fans is the same as the dipshits who threatened to literally kill a guy for happening to touch a baseball that was out of play? Can you please just stop with your nonsensical glorification of endlessly rooting for a team that sucks and get to your fucking point?
Yes, Epstein led the Red Sox to two world championships, but now the city is totally turning on the team because they didn’t win “this” year. I don’t want that for my team. A championship’s not worth it.
Yeah. Boston fans have inferiority complexes the size of New York City. They were like that before they won the World Series. Ask Bill Buckner. By the way, seeing as you are a "speechwriter," I would assume you should know that quotation marks don't indicate emphasis.
But you know what? I'm tired of being everyone's punchline and I want a team that does more than tries hard. I want to go to a game and not only feel like they might actually win, but that they should win. If that makes me an asshole, then I'm an asshole and I don't care.
The Cubs don’t always need to chase the biggest name. Instead, let’s do what the Red Sox did. They gave a local guy a shot. Epstein was personally invested in the team and delivered. It worked because he was one of them. Same as Nolan Ryan in Texas.
I hate to correct you on yet another error in your facts but the only reason Theo got the shot he did was because the biggest name available in 2002 changed his mind at the last second and went back to Oakland. Theo was successful because he applied advanced analytics and a larger budget to the methodology of building a team that was more intelligent than his competition at the time. His heart didn't have anything more to do with it than keeping him alive through the regular distribution of oxygen throughout his body.
And you don’t always need a homegrown guy. It’s the essence of a man that matters, not the address.
Again with the essence of something. How do you know that Theo Epstein doesn't have this essence? Oh right, because Boston is full of assholes, or something.
Look at the Pittsburgh Steelers. When Bill Cower left, everyone was calling for a big name. Instead they hired a hungry, young coach and supported him with appropriate resources and time. Look at Mike Tomlin now, and you think one thing: Steelers.
I don't want to look at the Pittsburgh Steelers. What in the flying fuck do the Pittsburgh Steelers have to do with the Cubs? The Steelers are one of the most successful sports franchises in existence. They did not need someone to completely change a culture of losing into one of winning. But I forgot, you like the losing culture as it is because that losing must be part of your essence. Am I understanding "essence" right?
Of course my buddies think I’m nuts (and a few other things I can’t print).
I'll do it for you. You are a fucking dipshit that makes me want to tear off my own arm so I can beat you with it.
They say, “I don’t care how we do it, I just want to finally win.”
I don't know your friends, and probably never will as I suspect they are probably imaginary, but they have already managed to express a more intelligent thought in one quote than you have in an entire post.
But if I’ve waited this long, invested this much, I want more.
You still haven't told me what it is you want. You want a local guy? We could just promote Greg Maddux to the GM spot and he could build a team of scrappy go-getters in between golf rounds and dick jokes. My only solace is that you haven't managed to wedge an endorsement of Former Playgirl Model and current Douchemaster General, Steve Stone into your argument.
So if you want to root for Theo Epstein to make it to the Hall of Fame, go for it. As for me, I’m rooting to get my team back. The one that has players who play their butts off, and fans who appreciate them for it. So that when the Cubs do eventually win — and I know they will one of these years — the championship will honor all the Cubs fans who have rooted for them throughout the last 100 years, not a GM from Boston.
Seriously, what did the people of Boston do to you? You are acting like the entire city of Boston stole your best girl and knocked her up. You just said it is the "essence of a man that matters, not his address." You know what? Forget it. I'm just going to go over to BCB to read a post about writing posts that explain the proper posting of posts to gain some sense of sanity back.
Good luck finding a team with as rich a history of losing that you can cheer for. Try Pittsburgh in about eighty years.
Comments
That might be the dumbest thing ever written in English.
I have no idea how you stomached the extra reading it took to fisk the damn thing.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
Selig stepping in is better for the Cubs than the Red Sox, methinks.
Also, this proves Sullivan had absolutely no idea what he was talking about last week when he said Selig was prohibited from intervening.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
I had seen this posted a few times and decided it wasn’t worth reading, but then you had to go ahead and write a post about it and entice me to read it anyway.
This guy sucks.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
I want to find Gary Karton and thrash him repeatedly about the head.
Steve SwisherQuote Reply
1st Cards bullpen FAIL of the series. Nice.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
Wow I almost don’t believe all that shlock was written.
MishQuote Reply
Last chance for the Cardinals…Motte has angered the BABIP gods.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
so Theo is the worst choice but we need a GM to do exactly what Theo did in Boston.
This is just a big bowl of wrong
dylanjQuote Reply
Please Texas closer, whoever you are, get three outs. That’s all I ask. Oh, and for Gary
VarshoKarton to die a slow, painful death.Steve SwisherQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]That might be the dumbest thing ever written in English.
I have no idea how you stomached the extra reading it took to fisk the damn thing.[/quote]I am blind now, so there was a price.
Aisle424Quote Reply
Yay giving away outs when the game is on the line!
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Aisle424]I am blind now, so there was a price.[/quote]Grindy.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
Two wasted strikes.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
I guess Chris DeLuca is too busy cultivating unfounded rumors to actually edit his fucking sports section. This hapless fuckwit has created something that isn’t even worthy of lining a bird cage. Awesome take down, Aisley.
melissaQuote Reply
(dying laughing) (dying laughing) (dying laughing) (dying laughing) (dying laughing)
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
Nick Punto vs Feliz = Not fair
dylanjQuote Reply
TLR is the MVP for Texas
dylanjQuote Reply
Hilarious post. If it’s not a team of Chicago born Sam Fulds then it’s not team that deserves to win. They either do it in the most Hollywood way possible or I won’t honor it. What utter bullshit.
binkyQuote Reply
Hmmm, methinks Texas just seized momentum.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
The real reason people hate Aramis and Soriano is right there between the lines: they’re damn foreigners.
binkyQuote Reply
Nice. Lots of TLR FAIL at the end there.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=josh]The real reason people hate Aramis and Soriano is right there between the lines: they’re damn foreigners.[/quote]Pretty much.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Rice Cube]Hmmm, methinks Texas just seized momentum.[/quote]Bam.
That’s a huge win for them. They had to win at least one in St. Lou and the come-from-behind should give them a boost.
binkyQuote Reply
[quote name=josh]The real reason people hate Aramis and Soriano is right there between the lines: they’re damn foreigners.[/quote]I think it is because they have lazy essence.
Aisle424Quote Reply
I tried to find Gary “Dolly” Varton to let him know about this epic takedown. I was unable to track him down via the googles.
Steve SwisherQuote Reply
[quote name=Aisle424]I think it is because they have lazy essence.[/quote]
Ironic that in 1996 Aramis was a popular cologne
melissaQuote Reply
I wish he would have then asked Mark Grace: Now compare that feeling of being appreciated by Chicago fans to that feeling of winning the one sporting event you trained your whole life to win while in Arizona.
binkyQuote Reply
(dying laughing)
(dying laughing)
(dying laughing)
GBTSQuote Reply
[quote name=josh]I wish he would have then asked Mark Grace: Now compare that feeling of being appreciated by Chicago fans to that feeling of winning the one sporting event you trained your whole life to win while in Arizona.[/quote]That wouldn’t have mattered because Gary Karton doesn’t care about winning.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=Rice Cube]That wouldn’t have mattered because Gary Karton doesn’t care about winning.[/quote]Counterpoint: Mark Grace is white and slow, but tried hard.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Rice Cube]That wouldn’t have mattered because Gary Karton doesn’t care about winning.[/quote]He only cares if they win on terms he and he alone (the one true fan) dictates. Not by “hiring” people, or “building a better organization” but by mimicking the Bad News Bears.
binkyQuote Reply
I feel like this is code for something.
GBTSQuote Reply
[quote name=GBTS]I feel like this is code for something.[/quote]THE ONE WITHOUT BROWN PEOPLE!
binkyQuote Reply
[quote name=josh]THE ONE WITHOUT BROWN PEOPLE MAKING TENS OF MILLIONS![/quote].
GBTSQuote Reply
[quote name=GBTS].[/quote]THEY TOOK OUR JERBS!
Rice CubeQuote Reply
GBTSQuote Reply
Alright, everybody back into the pile…
Rice CubeQuote Reply
I wonder how long of a leash the local yokels are going to give Theo once he starts changing things around. This is a fanbase that hates any and all change. Didn’t people bitch about organ music a season or two ago??
it’s going to get worse when Theo sells the naming rights of the stadium to Fuck Me In the Ass inc.
26.2cubsfanQuote Reply
[quote name=26.2cubsfan]I wonder how long of a leash the local yokels are going to give Theo once he starts changing things around. This is a fanbase that hates any and all change. Didn’t people bitch about organ music a season or two ago??
it’s going to get worse when Theo sells the naming rights of the stadium to Fuck Me In the Ass inc.[/quote]Theo won’t be doing that. Crane or whoever Tom puts in charge of “business” will do that.
Aisle424Quote Reply
[quote name=26.2cubsfan]I wonder how long of a leash the local yokels are going to give Theo once he starts changing things around. This is a fanbase that hates any and all change. Didn’t people bitch about organ music a season or two ago??
it’s going to get worse when Theo sells the naming rights of the stadium to Fuck Me In the Ass inc.[/quote]It’s likely he will come in to impossible expectations, for sure.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
The thing Cub fans need to realize is that fixing this franchise is like turning around the Bismarck. It’s going to take time. This org is deeply flawed.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]The thing Cub fans need to realize is that fixing this franchise is like turning around the Bismarck. It’s going to take time. This org is deeply flawed.[/quote]BUT HE WON A WORLD SERIES IN TWO YEARS IN BOSTON!!!
11111 LSA 11111+ NAMBLA rec’d TURN IT GREEN
Aisle424Quote Reply
[quote name=Aisle424]BUT HE WON A WORLD SERIES IN TWO YEARS IN BOSTON!!!
11111 LSA 11111+ NAMBLA rec’d TURN IT GREEN[/quote]Well, I suppose if Tom lets him sign and Ortiz, a Schilling, and trade for a Bellhorn and a Foulke, then he might do that here. (dying laughing)
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]Well, I suppose if Tom lets him sign and Ortiz, a Schilling, and trade for a Bellhorn and a Foulke, then he might do that here. (dying laughing)[/quote]Hey, Ortiz is going to be a free agent, so….
How hard can a Bellhorn be to find? We used to have one, if I remember. They must be a dime a dozen.
binkyQuote Reply
The guy who does the MLB fastcast has the most annoying voice in the history of everything.
binkyQuote Reply
Pretty sure the person who wrote that article on the Sun-Times is actually retarded.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=mb21]Pretty sure the person who wrote that article on the Sun-Times is actually an exceptional person[/quote]
/Politically correct’d
MishQuote Reply
[quote name=Mish] Pretty sure the person who wrote that article on the Sun-Times is actually an exponential person[/quote]
Fixed
BerseliusQuote Reply
So it’s friday friday. Time for Theo Theo to be officially official. Party. Party.
cdwQuote Reply
Is there a press conference officially officially scheduled?
BerseliusQuote Reply
Oh jeeez
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=jp-passan_pujols_world_series_game_two_cardinals_102011
MishQuote Reply
I don’t think so but I’m not really connected to the twitter tubes that would give me potable information.
cdwQuote Reply
site logo updated
BerseliusQuote Reply
[quote name=Berselius]site logo updated[/quote](dying laughing) love that pic
MishQuote Reply
[quote name=Mish]Oh jeeez
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=jp-passan_pujols_world_series_game_two_cardinals_102011%5B/quote%5DI fucking hate journalists. “Wahhhh Pujols didn’t talk to us after the game. Let’s bash him in an article”
WaLiQuote Reply
[quote name=Mish](dying laughing) love that pic[/quote]It is great.
WaLiQuote Reply
[quote name=WaLi]I fucking hate journalists. “Wahhhh Pujols didn’t talk to us after the game. Let’s bash him in an article”[/quote]Buster is basically doing the same thing on Twitter. WS off day = media self-importance day, apparently.
MishQuote Reply
[quote name=Mish]WS off day = announcement of Theo, hopefully.[/quote].
WaLiQuote Reply
(dying laughing) at that article. I have actually encountered that argument before in other sports contexts: it’s a variation on the theme of “if winning doesn’t happen entirely as a result of magic, it’s not worth it.”
fang2415Quote Reply
[quote name=WaLi]WS off day = announcement of Theo, hopefully.[/quote]What did somebody smart here say? Late morning to maximize press?
Mind you, I assume the Boston press has Theo’s house staked out, so we might start hiring about flight schedules soon. Or in a month, if it’s the Chicago press that’s got him staked out.
fang2415Quote Reply
[quote name=Mish]Buster is basically doing the same thing on Twitter. WS off day = media self-importance day, apparently.[/quote]
Seriously. It should be Cubs self-importance day
BerseliusQuote Reply
I don’t think it gets announced today. When is Selig going to get involved? I figure that’s when it will get done. Does Selig have time to deal with that shit today or does he want to wait until after the Series? It could go either way.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=mb21]I don’t think it gets announced today. When is Selig going to get involved? I figure that’s when it will get done. Does Selig have time to deal with that shit today or does he want to wait until after the Series? It could go either way.[/quote]I’d put the over/under at 50-50.
Srsly, didn’t you say that the deal will only happen just when it looks like everything’s totally fucked? That seems about right for today.
I guess they could have some sort of preliminary one-line press release today and wait until the next off-day for the rah-rah Theo-in-a-jersey show? Although that’d probably piss off Selig even more. Let’s hope they do it.
fang2415Quote Reply
[quote name=mb21]I don’t think it gets announced today. When is Selig going to get involved? I figure that’s when it will get done. Does Selig have time to deal with that shit today or does he want to wait until after the Series? It could go either way.[/quote]I thought I read an article that said he wouldn’t get involved until after the series.
WaLiQuote Reply
Yeah, if we start hearing about how the deal if falling apart and how Theo will not be joining the Cubs, a deal will get done. I don’t think the two sides can agree on shit at this point except that they disagree. I don’t see that changing unless there’s a significant change.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=WaLi]I thought I read an article that said he wouldn’t get involved until after the series.[/quote]http://www.weei.com/sports/boston/this-just-in/21149131/selig-might-arbitrate-sox-cubs-theo-talks
Nevermind. I was thinking of that quote but that was in regards to the Red Sox and their boozing and eating of the devil’s fried chicken.
WaLiQuote Reply
I’m inclined to believe that this guy was joking. If not, I’ve lost all faith in humanity.
MuckerQuote Reply
[quote name=WaLi]I thought I read an article that said he wouldn’t get involved until after the series.[/quote]That makes sense.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=mb21]I don’t see that changing unless there’s a significant change.[/quote](dying laughing). I agree.
fang2415Quote Reply
(dying laughing)
(dying laughing)
(dying laughing)
I loved the part about the honor that used to come with being a Cubs fan. Lee Elia agrees.
AndCountingQuote Reply
All of the media for cubs/Sox have gone completely quiet. Makes me wonder if Selig did get involved and said to stop negotiating in public and get a deal done. I think teams only get a 7-day window, once permission has been granted to speak to another teams exec, to agree on a deal before they have to request an extension. I bet we hear it’s done today and an announcement comes the next off-day.
JManQuote Reply
How do people adopt that way of thinking? How can people seriously rather see their favorite team lose than win as long as they are trying hard? That guy probably sucked ass in baseball that’s why he thinks that way.
MuckerQuote Reply
[quote name=Mucker]How do people adopt that way of thinking? How can people seriously rather see their favorite team lose than win as long as they are trying hard? That guy probably sucked ass in baseball that’s why he thinks that way.[/quote]It’s a way of (l)ife.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=JMan]All of the media for cubs/Sox have gone completely quiet. Makes me wonder if Selig did get involved and said to stop negotiating in public and get a deal done. I think teams only get a 7-day window, once permission has been granted to speak to another teams exec, to agree on a deal before they have to request an extension. I bet we hear it’s done today and an announcement comes the next off-day.[/quote]Is that why “talks break off”? Because they simply run out of time?
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=Rice Cube]Is that why “talks break off”? Because they simply run out of time?[/quote]Hasn’t it been longer than 7 days? Or has it only seemed like that?
WaLiQuote Reply
[quote name=melissa]Ironic that in 1996 Aramis was a popular cologne[/quote]
And years before that, a utility swordsman in the Three Musketeers.
Stevo-samaQuote Reply
[quote name=Stevo-sama]And years before that, a utility swordsman in the Three Musketeers.[/quote]Was he the lazy one?
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=Mucker]How do people adopt that way of thinking? How can people seriously rather see their favorite team lose than win as long as they are trying hard? That guy probably sucked ass in baseball that’s why he thinks that way.[/quote]I think there’s something to this theory. We all want our heroes to be ourselves, right? A lot of fans have this notion that if they’d just tried a little harder, or hadn’t broken their arm in junior high, or that damn little league coach had just given them the chance, they’d be super stars too. You want to think there’s nothing really special about professional athletes that makes them any better than the average joe, so they project these weird notions onto how these guys should behave.
binkyQuote Reply
[quote name=Stevo-sama]utility swordsman[/quote](dying laughing)
fang2415Quote Reply
(dying laughing)
Nice work, Aisley
WenningtonsGorillaCockQuote Reply
[quote name=Mucker]How do people adopt that way of thinking? How can people seriously rather see their favorite team lose than win as long as they are trying hard? That guy probably sucked ass in baseball that’s why he thinks that way.[/quote]I think he’s basically just pining for a World Series the way Andy MacPhail vowed he would do it. Shrewd, smart, cheap, lucky. He wants the Cubs to be Rocky. Doesn’t count as a Cubs victory if it isn’t an underdog victory, that kind of thing. It’s so dumb. Built on a huge load of steaming revisionist crap. But that’s how people work sometimes.
AndCountingQuote Reply
[quote name=AndCounting]I think he’s basically just pining for a World Series the way Andy MacPhail vowed he would do it. Shrewd, smart, cheap, lucky. He wants the Cubs to be Rocky. Doesn’t count as a Cubs victory if it isn’t an underdog victory, that kind of thing. It’s so dumb. Built on a huge load of steaming revisionist crap. But that’s how people work sometimes.[/quote]If they win, why does it matter how they did it as long as it didn’t involve blatant cheating, genocide or war crimes?
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=josh]I think there’s something to this theory. We all want our heroes to be ourselves, right? A lot of fans have this notion that if they’d just tried a little harder, or hadn’t broken their arm in junior high, or that damn little league coach had just given them the chance, they’d be super stars too. You want to think there’s nothing really special about professional athletes that makes them any better than the average joe, so they project these weird notions onto how these guys should behave.[/quote]This is part of the fallacy of baseball: people want to believe that the teams are basically evenly matched — as if the talent were distributed randomly between teams — and so whoever “plays best” that year will win it all.
If you take that perspective, then using superior resources to acquire superior talent is like “cheating”. It’s basically the same reason people think free agency is evil — the Honorable Way to Success is to work with the talent you have and out-merit the other guys who started from the same place but didn’t have the guts/smarts/heart/grit/work ethic to make it happen. It’s also a big reason for the anti-Moneyball backlash, which I think has more to do with the name of the book than anything in it (not that any of the critics read it anyway, (dying laughing)).
That perspective might have been valid in like 1872, and actually is pretty legit in high school sports today. But the reason articles like this one are so laughable is that they’re based on that notion of fair initial distribution of talent between teams, which has been a total fiction for at least a hundred years.
fang2415Quote Reply
[quote name=Rice Cube]If they win, why does it matter how they did it as long as it didn’t involve blatant cheating, genocide or war crimes?[/quote]You underestimate people’s love of the underdog story. That’s why the Yankees are irrationally reviled by a lot of people. The Yankees are the ….overdog, I guess.
binkyQuote Reply
[quote name=Rice Cube]If they win, why does it matter how they did it as long as it didn’t involve blatant cheating, genocide or war crimes?[/quote]No victory without genocide is a “real” victory. You commie.
fang2415Quote Reply
[quote name=fang2415]This is part of the fallacy of baseball: people want to believe that the teams are basically evenly matched — as if the talent were distributed randomly between teams — and so whoever “plays best” that year will win it all.
If you take that perspective, then using superior resources to acquire superior talent is like “cheating”. It’s basically the same reason people think free agency is evil — the Honorable Way to Success is to work with the talent you have and out-merit the other guys who started from the same place but didn’t have the guts/smarts/heart/grit/work ethic to make it happen. It’s also a big reason for the anti-Moneyball backlash, which I think has more to do with the name of the book than anything in it (not that any of the critics read it anyway, (dying laughing)).
That perspective might have been valid in like 1872, and actually is pretty legit in high school sports today. But the reason articles like this one are so laughable is that they’re based on that notion of fair initial distribution of talent between teams, which has been a total fiction for at least a hundred years.[/quote]Also, using statistical analysis is cheating. The FO shouldn’t be able to know a guy is good, they should “know” it through the same gritty determination. You look at how hard a guy runs and you know he’s the best player on the field. End of story.
binkyQuote Reply
[quote name=josh]You underestimate people’s love of the underdog story. That’s why the Yankees are irrationally reviled by a lot of people. The Yankees are the ….overdog, I guess.[/quote]I don’t think it’s irrational to root for a team because they’re the underdog or to root against the Yankees because they have a ton of money. Well, no more irrational than any other reason to root for/against a team, anyway.
ACTQuote Reply
[quote name=ACT]I don’t think it’s irrational to root for a team because they’re the underdog or to root against the Yankees because they have a ton of money. Well, no more irrational than any other reason to root for/against a team, anyway.[/quote]No, but I mean that if the Cubs become the Yankees of the central, that kills people’s love of the Cubs as Underdog. If the Cubs are now the Overdog, then their internal logic says they can’t root for them anymore.
binkyQuote Reply
[quote name=Rice Cube]If they win, why does it matter how they did it as long as it didn’t involve blatant cheating, genocide or war crimes?[/quote]It’s all a matter of story telling, isn’t it? I mean, there are certain games you remember more than others because of how the Cubs won them. It’s how they arrive at the win that makes it memorable. So when people fantasize about the Cubs winning it all, they imagine things going a certain way. Like a girl plans out her wedding. She doesn’t just want to get married. She wants the whole thing to play out like a fairy tale. Not all girls, but some of them think that way.
Same thing with some Cubs fans. They want the essence to be dreamy.
AndCountingQuote Reply
[quote name=josh]Also, using statistical analysis is cheating. The FO shouldn’t be able to know a guy is good, they should “know” it through the same gritty determination. You look at how hard a guy runs and you know he’s the best player on the field. End of story.[/quote]Well, that mostly works too, if players were selected randomly. Seriously, a lot of stupid shit that fans and press says would make sense in a world where a random draft determined all the rosters.
fang2415Quote Reply
[quote name=josh]No, but I mean that if the Cubs become the Yankees of the central, that kills people’s love of the Cubs as Underdog. If the Cubs are now the Overdog, then their internal logic says they can’t root for them anymore.[/quote]I’d give a McNutt to have the Cubs be as “hated” as the Yankees. That would mean they were doing something right.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=fang2415]Well, that mostly works too, if players were selected randomly. Seriously, a lot of stupid shit that fans and press says would make sense in a world where a random draft determined all the rosters.[/quote]That’s a really good point, though. I never thought about it that way, but what you said makes perfect sense.
binkyQuote Reply
[quote name=fang2415]Well, that mostly works too, if players were selected randomly. Seriously, a lot of stupid shit that fans and press says would make sense in a world where a random draft determined all the rosters.[/quote]It would be beyond hilarious if one team were randomly stacked with Pujols-es and Sabathias and another team got the Tony Campanas.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=fang2415]Well, that mostly works too, if players were selected randomly. Seriously, a lot of stupid shit that fans and press says would make sense in a world where a random draft determined all the rosters.[/quote]I remember reading an article about how teams in Cuba are actually kind of like that, since teams aren’t allowed to recruit players, so they just play for the town they grew up in (again, a lot like high school teams in the US). The article was actually about some American guy who loved watching the Cuban league because of it.
fang2415Quote Reply
[quote name=fang2415]I remember reading an article about how teams in Cuba are actually kind of like that, since teams aren’t allowed to recruit players, so they just play for the town they grew up in (again, a lot like high school teams in the US). The article was actually about some American guy who loved watching the Cuban league because of it.[/quote]It seems kind of silly and hypocritical. Even in playground sports, when you have to pick teams, you always pick the best kids first and the guys who sucked were picked last. Why should it be different in pro sports? Except last year when the Cubs “felt sorry” for Hayden Simpson and picked him first.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=josh]No, but I mean that if the Cubs become the Yankees of the central, that kills people’s love of the Cubs as Underdog. If the Cubs are now the Overdog, then their internal logic says they can’t root for them anymore.[/quote]There’s a ton of truth to this. So many fans aren’t in love with the Cubs, they’re in love with the idea of what it means to be a Cubs fan. Long-suffering. Die-hard. Incurable optimist. If your team is actually good and everyone knows it, all those traits become afterthoughts. Not everybody wants success. They want to actually choose to be the Joads instead of the Clampetts. Or I guess you could say, some people define success as trying your best even though no one thinks you can succeed. But the fact is, if the Cubs don’t hire the person who best knows how to evaluate talent and build a winning system, and if they aren’t willing to spend all that they can to build a winner, they aren’t trying their best. They’re putting on a puppet show based on a true story about people who try hard. So if maximum effort doesn’t begin at the top, the whole notion is a complete farce. Which is what the Cubs have been all my life.
AndCountingQuote Reply
I mean, I’m cool with parity and fair play and all that sports movie bullshit, but anyone who doesn’t want the best possible players on their team of choice should be executed.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=Rice Cube]It would be beyond hilarious if one team were randomly stacked with Pujols-es and Sabathias and another team got the Tony Campanas.[/quote]Well, that’s the Cubs for you. Just a bunch of hard-luck, lovable losers. The only way for them to triumph over that adversity is to tighten their belts and run every ball hard to first base.
/Traditional fan’d
fang2415Quote Reply
[quote name=AndCounting]There’s a ton of truth to this. So many fans aren’t in love with the Cubs, they’re in love with the idea of what it means to be a Cubs fan. Long-suffering. Die-hard. Incurable optimist. If your team is actually good and everyone knows it, all those traits become afterthoughts. Not everybody wants success. They want to actually choose to be the Joads instead of the Clampetts. Or I guess you could say, some people define success as trying your best even though no one thinks you can succeed. But the fact is, if the Cubs don’t hire the person who best knows how to evaluate talent and build a winning system, and if they aren’t willing to spend all that they can to build a winner, they aren’t trying their best. They’re putting on a puppet show based on a true story about people who try hard. So if maximum effort doesn’t begin at the top, the whole notion is a complete farce. Which is what the Cubs have been all my life.[/quote]
GBTSQuote Reply
[quote name=AndCounting]There’s a ton of truth to this. So many fans aren’t in love with the Cubs, they’re in love with the idea of what it means to be a Cubs fan. Long-suffering. Die-hard. Incurable optimist. If your team is actually good and everyone knows it, all those traits become afterthoughts. Not everybody wants success. They want to actually choose to be the Joads instead of the Clampetts. Or I guess you could say, some people define success as trying your best even though no one thinks you can succeed. But the fact is, if the Cubs don’t hire the person who best knows how to evaluate talent and build a winning system, and if they aren’t willing to spend all that they can to build a winner, they aren’t trying their best. They’re putting on a puppet show based on a true story about people who try hard. So if maximum effort doesn’t begin at the top, the whole notion is a complete farce. Which is what the Cubs have been all my life.[/quote]Did anyone read Marlon Byrd’s latest blog post? He said a similar thing. That winning starts at the top. That’s what happened in Philly (they had been on the backslide for a little while) and Texas. I think he was trying to vocally endorse Theo without naming any names. The Trib basically ran that story for 100 years, that fans should just keep showing up and paying ticket prices and the Lovable Losers were sure to accidentally luck (I mean, hustle) their way to the top eventually.
binkyQuote Reply
So what you are telling me is that I am actually supposed to keep rooting for the Cubs after they win? I was going to switch to the Indians.
WaLiQuote Reply
[quote name=WaLi]So what you are telling me is that I am actually supposed to keep rooting for the Cubs after they win? I was going to switch to the Indians.[/quote]Changing the baseball world, one root at a time.
binkyQuote Reply
http://www.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/22475988/32844484
Leader! OMGBRINGHIMBACKJERRY
GBTSQuote Reply
Olin Kreutz —-> retired
WenningtonsGorillaCockQuote Reply
[quote name=Rice Cube]It seems kind of silly and hypocritical. Even in playground sports, when you have to pick teams, you always pick the best kids first and the guys who sucked were picked last. Why should it be different in pro sports?[/quote]
Well, there’s no FAs on the playground, or trades, or Dominican training acadamies. I’d imagine a lot of fans imagine that MLB is basically a playground, with an even distribution of talent.
I’m not really arguing which system is “better” (i.e., random selection vs. draft determines everything vs. FA+trades+draft+whatever); I’m sure they all have plusses and minuses from a spectator’s perspective (leaving aside exploitation). But I think fans want to believe that reality is one system, when it’s really another.
(dying laughing)
fang2415Quote Reply
[quote name=AndCounting]There’s a ton of truth to this. So many fans aren’t in love with the Cubs, they’re in love with the idea of what it means to be a Cubs fan. Long-suffering. Die-hard. Incurable optimist. If your team is actually good and everyone knows it, all those traits become afterthoughts. Not everybody wants success. They want to actually choose to be the Joads instead of the Clampetts. Or I guess you could say, some people define success as trying your best even though no one thinks you can succeed. But the fact is, if the Cubs don’t hire the person who best knows how to evaluate talent and build a winning system, and if they aren’t willing to spend all that they can to build a winner, they aren’t trying their best. They’re putting on a puppet show based on a true story about people who try hard. So if maximum effort doesn’t begin at the top, the whole notion is a complete farce. Which is what the Cubs have been all my life.[/quote]I remember an article from early in the 2003 playoffs about how a Cubs-Red Sox World Series would cause a rupture in space-time since both cities had defined their entire identity on losing and one of them would have to win. There was one line like “The ball can’t roll through both Bill Buckner and Leon Durham’s legs”. (dying laughing)
Anyway, I think some fans just fear winning no matter how it happens, but I don’t think that’s Herr Karton’s beef. He just thinks that it would be un-American for a team to gain a competitive advantage by hiring people rather than gutsing it out with whatever scrubs the Yankees leave you.
fang2415Quote Reply
Dave Cameron on the late-game tactics last night:
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/taking-out-jason-motte/
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=fang2415]What did somebody smart here say? Late morning to maximize press?[/quote]
Well, looks like no announcement today then. I’m off to the gym.
/Hoping universe will punish my blithe certainty by proving me wrong’d
fang2415Quote Reply
[quote name=fang2415]Well, there’s no FAs on the playground, or trades, or Dominican training acadamies. I’d imagine a lot of fans imagine that MLB is basically a playground, with an even distribution of talent.
I’m not really arguing which system is “better” (i.e., random selection vs. draft determines everything vs. FA+trades+draft+what ever); I’m sure they all have plusses and minuses from a spectator’s perspective (leaving aside exploitation). But I think fans want to believe that reality is one system, when it’s really another.[/quote]I wonder if today’s kids are a bit more sophisticated. Like “I’ll give you a l-o-l-lipop and 25 cents for that tall kid” type of deals.
Re: reality…I don’t think most fans realize how sports transactions work, considering most of them want the Cubs to trade Soriano and Zambrano to Boston for Epstein (dying laughing)
Stupid macro…
Rice CubeQuote Reply
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/jon_heyman/10/21/gm.search.jed.hoyer/
Talks of Friedman –> Angels
WaLiQuote Reply
[quote name=WaLi]http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/jon_heyman/10/21/gm.search.jed.hoyer/
Talks of Friedman –> Angels[/quote]But doesn’t the playground method actually result in an equal distribution of talent? The best get picked last, but the talented ones get divided roughly in half first.
[quote name=WenningtonsGorillaCock]Olin Kreutz —-> retired[/quote]So either he was sick of playing, or he hated playing for the Saints. If the former, good thing the Bears didn’t sign him. If hte later, should have taken the money Ollie.
binkyQuote Reply
Moving on up!
Continues to say…
Damn.
WaLiQuote Reply
(dying laughing) @ the compensation part.
Rodrigo RamirezQuote Reply
[quote name=WaLi]Moving on up!
[/quote]
GBTSQuote Reply
If the Cubs were to charge people for being on the season ticket waiting list, they could make some money. If they charged $25 per person per year, that’s about $2 mil a year. Assuming half the people wouldn’t want to be in anymore, probably about $1 mil a year. That could go torwards installing new troughs or mist stations!
I am on the list but seeing as to how I just moved to NC I probably wouldn’t purchase tickets if I was able to and would drop off the list if I had to pay. But maybe if they made it so that $25 you put in goes torwards your season ticket purchase, it would entice people to stay in. I think the Bears charge people to go on the list, but it is more like $100 and you don’t get that money back.
WaLiQuote Reply
[quote name=WaLi]If the Cubs were to charge people for being on the season ticket waiting list, they could make some money. If they charged $25 per person per year, that’s about $2 mil a year. Assuming half the people wouldn’t want to be in anymore, probably about $1 mil a year. That could go torwards installing new troughs or mist stations!
I am on the list but seeing as to how I just moved to NC I probably wouldn’t purchase tickets if I was able to and would drop off the list if I had to pay. But maybe if they made it so that $25 you put in goes torwards your season ticket purchase, it would entice people to stay in. I think the Bears charge people to go on the list, but it is more like $100 and you don’t get that money back.[/quote]It just might work.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
(dying laughing)
And mental retardation.Quote Reply
[quote name=WaLi]
I am on the list but seeing as to how I just moved to NC I probably wouldn’t purchase tickets if I was able to and would drop off the list if I had to pay. But maybe if they made it so that $25 you put in goes torwards your season ticket purchase, it would entice people to stay in. I think the Bears charge people to go on the list, but it is more like $100 and you don’t get that money back.[/quote]
With the Bears it goes towards your first year ticket purchase.
vladimirQuote Reply
Speaking of the Bears, I have it on certain authority that the orange and black may well be on the attack this coming Sunday.
binkyQuote Reply
I moved up the list from around 17000 to around 13000. However, I joined the list in 2006 and I don’t think my slot went down more than a few hundred or possibly a thousand places before now. I don’t remember the exact number when I joined, but I know it was less than 20000.
And mental retardation.Quote Reply
YES.
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/win-probability-graphs-update/
That is awesome.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=fang2415]IAnyway, I think some fans just fear winning no matter how it happens, but I don’t think that’s Herr Karton’s beef. He just thinks that it would be un-American for a team to gain a competitive advantage by hiring people rather than gutsing it out with whatever scrubs the Yankees leave you.[/quote]That would seem to reflect the zeitgeist as understood by much of this country, no?
We can’t bust heads like we used to, but we have our ways. One trick is to tell ’em stories that don’t go anywhere – like the time I caught the ferry over to Shelbyville. I needed a new heel for my shoe, so, I decided to go to Morganville, which is what they called Shelbyville in those days. So I tied an onion to my belt, which was the style at the time. Now, to take the ferry cost a nickel, and in those days, nickels had pictures of bumblebees on ’em. Give me five bees for a quarter, you’d say. Now where were we? Oh yeah: the important thing was I had an onion on my belt, which was the style at the time. They didn’t have white onions because of the war. The only thing you could get was those big yellow ones…
uncle daveQuote Reply
[quote name=And mental retardation.]I moved up the list from around 17000 to around 13000. However, I joined the list in 2006 and I don’t think my slot went down more than a few hundred or possibly a thousand places before now. I don’t remember the exact number when I joined, but I know it was less than 20000.[/quote]I joined the list in the middle of 2008 after I moved to IL. I guess something happened after 2006 that made the list grow exponentially (dying laughing)
WaLiQuote Reply
I saw on MLBTR today that the Mets would listen on David Wright. One Red Sox blogger thinks a Youkilis trade might be a good idea, not that this means anything. Just maybe there’s some hope for 3B besides Jeff Baker.
binkyQuote Reply
http://www.csnchicago.com/blog/cubs-talk/post/Kap-Epstein-deal-remains-on-track?blockID=580938&feedID=661
kap sorta sticking to his story
GWQuote Reply
[quote name=GW]http://www.csnchicago.com/blog/cubs-talk/post/Kap-Epstein-deal-remains-on-track?blockID=580938&feedID=661
kap sorta sticking to his story[/quote]At least they got a new picture of Theo.
WaLiQuote Reply
http://www.npbtracker.com/2011/10/hold-your-horses/#content%5Bquote name=Yu Darvish blog] It was an article from the Kyodo News, but what did they base their writing on?
You can say this is freedom of press, but with freedom comes responsibility.
I want a press that takes responsibility.
Every year, when I haven’t decided anything, they write “Majors this, Majors that”, but then when I don’t go they just make up excuses.
How did they write lies and escape responsibility?[/quote]Sports journalism sucks everywhere!
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=Rice Cube]http://www.npbtracker.com/2011/10/hold-your-horses/#content
Sports journalism sucks everywhere![/quote]With great lies come great responsibilities.
binkyQuote Reply
Post fail!
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=uncle dave]We can’t bust heads like we used to, but we have our ways. One trick is to tell ’em stories that don’t go anywhere – like the time I caught the ferry over to Shelbyville. I needed a new heel for my shoe, so, I decided to go to Morganville, which is what they called Shelbyville in those days. So I tied an onion to my belt, which was the style at the time. Now, to take the ferry cost a nickel, and in those days, nickels had pictures of bumblebees on ’em. Give me five bees for a quarter, you’d say. Now where were we? Oh yeah: the important thing was I had an onion on my belt, which was the style at the time. They didn’t have white onions because of the war. The only thing you could get was those big yellow ones…[/quote]
Aisle424Quote Reply
Current caller on the Score is confirming everything said about Cubs fans in this thread. Every. Fucking. Thing.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=WaLi]If the Cubs were to charge people for being on the season ticket waiting list, they could make some money. If they charged $25 per person per year, that’s about $2 mil a year. Assuming half the people wouldn’t want to be in anymore, probably about $1 mil a year. That could go torwards installing new troughs or mist stations!
I am on the list but seeing as to how I just moved to NC I probably wouldn’t purchase tickets if I was able to and would drop off the list if I had to pay. But maybe if they made it so that $25 you put in goes torwards your season ticket purchase, it would entice people to stay in. I think the Bears charge people to go on the list, but it is more like $100 and you don’t get that money back.[/quote]
I think this is how several other baseball teams do it, also. Other than being able to say that your season ticket waiting list is so many tens of thousands of people long, I don’t see why teams make it free. Plus, it would seem to be frustrating for planning for people who actually want to buy tix. Lots of my friends who live out of state or have no intention or ability to actually buy tickets put their names on the list “because, hey, it’s free so why not?” But for some people who would really like to buy season tix, they don’t think they’ll ever be able to, so they don’t bother.
WenningtonsGorillaCockQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]Current caller on the Score is confirming everything said about Cubs fans in this thread. Every. Fucking. Thing.[/quote]Please tell me Dan is having none of it.
MishQuote Reply
From KLaw. I think I agree with this approach. He seems to be high on Cashner FWIW.
Rodrigo RamirezQuote Reply
[quote name=AndCounting]There’s a ton of truth to this. So many fans aren’t in love with the Cubs, they’re in love with the idea of what it means to be a Cubs fan. Long-suffering. Die-hard. Incurable optimist. If your team is actually good and everyone knows it, all those traits become afterthoughts. Not everybody wants success. They want to actually choose to be the Joads instead of the Clampetts. Or I guess you could say, some people define success as trying your best even though no one thinks you can succeed. But the fact is, if the Cubs don’t hire the person who best knows how to evaluate talent and build a winning system, and if they aren’t willing to spend all that they can to build a winner, they aren’t trying their best. They’re putting on a puppet show based on a true story about people who try hard. So if maximum effort doesn’t begin at the top, the whole notion is a complete farce. Which is what the Cubs have been all my life.[/quote]
This is so, so spot-on.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Mish]Please tell me Dan is having none of it.[/quote]He skewered him pretty good.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
THIS
Rodrigo RamirezQuote Reply
By Jackson, I’m assuming Jay Jackson, right?
ACTQuote Reply
[quote name=Rodrigo Ramirez]THIS[/quote]I have to agree, assuming they mean Jay Jackson. I’m guessing it is going to be less though since it is taking this long. Although Sox did start off by asking for Garza, so…
WaLiQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]Current caller on the Score is confirming everything said about Cubs fans in this thread. Every. Fucking. Thing.[/quote]I don’t know. Is he saying it from the heart, though? Or just paroting some news media outlets because he thinks that’s what they’re supposed to say? I only want fans to confirm my suspicions about fans when they can do it from their hearts. If he read anything at all before saying that, it’s not real for me.
binkyQuote Reply
[quote name=WaLi]I have to agree, assuming they mean Jay Jackson. I’m guessing it is going to be less though since it is taking this long. Although Sox did start off by asking for Garza, so…[/quote]
Yes, Jay. Must have cut that part off.
Rodrigo RamirezQuote Reply
[quote name=josh]I don’t know. Is he saying it from the heart, though? Or just paroting some news media outlets because he thinks that’s what they’re supposed to say? I only want fans to confirm my suspicions about fans when they can do it from their hearts. If he read anything at all before saying that, it’s not real for me.[/quote]Nah, he meant it.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]Nah, he meant it.[/quote]Then he was an idiot the right way. That’s all that matters.
binkyQuote Reply
[quote name=josh]Then he was an idiot the right way. That’s all that matters.[/quote](dying laughing)
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Rodrigo Ramirez]Yes, Jay. Must have cut that part off.[/quote]That’s a bit more palatable (dying laughing) I’d rather keep Brett Jackson and send them everything else.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=ACT]By Jackson, I’m assuming Jay Jackson, right?[/quote]No, he’s talking about Brett Jackson. The scouting report on him is that he has solid to above average tools across the board, but none that stand out.
Replace McNutt with Jackson’s name and I agree with the sentiment. No way would I trade all 3 for Theo, but all 3 are wildly overrated.
If this process has shown us anything it’s just how bad the Cubs farm system is.
mb21Quote Reply
Oh, Jay Jackson? I didn’t even know he was considered a prospect these days.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=mb21]Oh, Jay Jackson? I didn’t even know he was considered a prospect these days.[/quote]Come on MB, you know anyone in a Cub uniform under the age of 35 is a prospect.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=josh]I don’t know. Is he saying it from the heart, though? Or just paroting some news media outlets because he thinks that’s what they’re supposed to say? I only want fans to confirm my suspicions about fans when they can do it from their hearts. If he read anything at all before saying that, it’s not real for me.[/quote]I agree with this to an extent. The media is powerful enough that it changes how people feel in their heart. If you say something enough times, the average fan will start to believe that. After awhile it’s a part of him.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=Rice Cube]Come on MB, you know anyone in a Cub uniform under the age of 35 is a prospect.[/quote](dying laughing) forgot about that.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=Rice Cube]Come on MB, you know anyone in a Cub uniform under the age of 35 is a prospect.[/quote]
Maybe it is Brett. The full name was not listed by the commenter. Either way, the Cubs can build the smartest FO in baseball with these moves, which to me is a bit more important that a few prospects that are not projected to be anything but marginally better than average.
Rodrigo RamirezQuote Reply
[quote name=Rodrigo Ramirez]Maybe it is Brett. The full name was not listed by the commenter. Either way, the Cubs can build the smartest FO in baseball with these moves, which to me is a bit more important that a few prospects that are not projected to be anything but marginally better than average.[/quote]
marginally better than average is a pretty nice deal at slave wages.
GWQuote Reply
[quote name=Rodrigo Ramirez]Maybe it is Brett. The full name was not listed by the commenter. Either way, the Cubs can build the smartest FO in baseball with these moves, which to me is a bit more important that a few prospects that are not projected to be anything but better than anyone not named Starlin currently with the club.[/quote]
Originally I would agree, but we would have McLeod and Hoyer so we could wait a year on Theo without hurting too bad. Yeah, Theo could rebuild, but further on down the line.
Also, why do you think Theo is only given a 5 year contract? Is that standard for a first time contract? Do you think Theo wanted that short or the Cubs? I would think a GM would need longer to get things going in the right direction, especially a club like the Cubs (dying laughing)
WaLiQuote Reply
[quote name=mb21]I agree with this to an extent. The media is powerful enough that it changes how people feel in their heart. If you say something enough times, the average fan will start to believe that. After awhile it’s a part of him.[/quote]Folks’ll get used to winning pretty quickly, though. I hope someone will remember to remind them how dumb they were for being afraid of this particular change.
uncle daveQuote Reply
WenningtonsGorillaCockQuote Reply
[quote name=mb21]I agree with this to an extent. The media is powerful enough that it changes how people feel in their heart. If you say something enough times, the average fan will start to believe that. After awhile it’s a part of him.[/quote]True, and at this point being a Cubs fan is something of a way of life. People have grown up swallowing the storyline of Lovable Losers so long that it will be hard for them to break out if it. It may be impossible for some. The Cubs will probably lose some fans because they aren’t winning the “right” way. On the other hand, I think that extreme case is in the smaller part of the bell curve. Most will be happy to see the team finally turn it around, even if they don’t all agree on the exact details of how it should be done.
binkyQuote Reply
[quote name=WenningtonsGorillaCock]
[/quote]Both of those groups of fans can fuck off.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Rodrigo Ramirez]Maybe it is Brett. The full name was not listed by the commenter. Either way, the Cubs can build the smartest FO in baseball with these moves, which to me is a bit more important that a few prospects that are not projected to be anything but marginally better than average.[/quote]average or so at minimum wage is still great value, but I wouldn’t hold up the deal for any one of them. I would if they wanted two or more.
mb21Quote Reply
The only issue with deciding to wait on Theo is that the Cubs haven’t even asked for permission to talk to Hoyer yet. It may be that Hoyer is only coming if Theo does.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=uncle dave]Folks’ll get used to winning pretty quickly, though. I hope someone will remember to remind them how dumb they were for being afraid of this particular change.[/quote]I think so. That attitude that we’ll somehow be punished if we win the wrong way will dissolve when the Universe decides not to smite Chicago and good will along with enjoyment from rocking the division every year will prevail.
binkyQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]Both of those groups of fans can fuck off.[/quote]Is there something about Man City that I don’t know?
uncle daveQuote Reply
I’m also back to thinking the Chicago media has been almost completely shut out of these negotiations. Several in Chicago thought a deal was done or was almost done and that a press conference would be called today. I was hopeful, but skeptical considering the lack of information these guys knew a week earlier. Turns out that was right. The Boston media has been right on this all along. When they say a press conference is coming up, I’ll believe it.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=mb21]The only issue with deciding to wait on Theo is that the Cubs haven’t even asked for permission to talk to Hoyer yet. It may be that Hoyer is only coming if Theo does.[/quote]Can the Cubs really afford at this point to say “Yeah, we’ll wait on Theo — don’t worry” and then have another terrible losing season? I think patience would wear pretty thin, given most people are already starting to see Ricketts as a do-nothing spoiled rich kid. How many people will understand the long-term vision and support the team? What if Theo decides over the next year that he actually likes Boston after all and they give him a promotion and he stays? I think it’s a bigger risk waiting.
binkyQuote Reply
Bird in the hand, etc.
binkyQuote Reply
[quote name=uncle dave]Is there something about Man City that I don’t know?[/quote]If it’s not Tottenham, it’s shite.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=josh]Can the Cubs really afford at this point to say “Yeah, we’ll wait on Theo — don’t worry” and then have another terrible losing season? I think patience would wear pretty thin, given most people are already starting to see Ricketts as a do-nothing spoiled rich kid. How many people will understand the long-term vision and support the team? What if Theo decides over the next year that he actually likes Boston after all and they give him a promotion and he stays? I think it’s a bigger risk waiting.[/quote]Nah, I think they’re fine if they wait. Ricketts has already won the PR battle here. Everyone outside of the ESPN-NESN universe recognizes that Henry and Lucchino are acting like jackasses because they can, and Ricketts can always just tell them Theo is coming as soon as the season is over.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Rice Cube]YES.
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/win-probability-graphs-update/
That is awesome.[/quote]
Wow, that does make an already-awesome feature even awesomer. Although it’s now going to be even harder to read blogs without discovering results of the previous night’s games. (dying laughing)
If there was a single ultra-nerdy thing I wish TV networks picked up on, it would be to put an LI meter on the screen during games. Okay, maybe wOBA and that.
fang2415Quote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]If it’s not Tottenham, it’s shite.[/quote]Fair enough. I’ve sorta followed City since the days when Claudio Reyna played there but that’s about it. Just wanted to make sure that their fanbase didn’t have a rep for being fascists or something, you know, like Real Madrid or Lazio.
uncle daveQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]Nah, I think they’re fine if they wait. Ricketts has already won the PR battle here. Everyone outside of the ESPN-NESN universe recognizes that Henry and Lucchino are acting like jackasses because they can, and Ricketts can always just tell them Theo is coming as soon as the season is over.[/quote]
agreed
GWQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]Nah, I think they’re fine if they wait. Ricketts has already won the PR battle here. Everyone outside of the ESPN-NESN universe recognizes that Henry and Lucchino are acting like jackasses because they can, and Ricketts can always just tell them Theo is coming as soon as the season is over.[/quote]I’m thinking more of the paying customer level of fan, though. Maybe they show up either way. But if they’ve been promised change and change falls through and they have another losing season next year, seems like a lot of bitter pills all at once, long-term plan notwithstanding. Most fans won’t know or care about anything but “3 years and Rickets has done nothing!” I’m worried the mob will turn on the team, I guess, and cripple their financials
binkyQuote Reply
[quote name=josh]I think so. That attitude that we’ll somehow be punished if we win the wrong way will dissolve when the Universe decides not to smite Chicago and good will along with enjoyment from rocking the division every year will prevail.[/quote]Yeah, but oh man are the callers on the Score going to crow when the Universe does decide to smite Chicago. It’ll be The Bunt Worked x 10,000.
fang2415Quote Reply
[quote name=uncle dave]Fair enough. I’ve sorta followed City since the days when Claudio Reyna played there but that’s about it. Just wanted to make sure that their fanbase didn’t have a rep for being fascists or something, you know, like Real Madrid or Lazio.[/quote]Oh, no nothing like that. (dying laughing) But don’t forget to include PSG in that fascist firm lot, either.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=fang2415]Yeah, but oh man are the callers on the Score going to crow when the Universe does decide to smite Chicago. It’ll be The Bunt Worked x 10,000.[/quote]Hey, there’s always room for a little self-fulfilling prophecy.
binkyQuote Reply
[quote name=WenningtonsGorillaCock]
[/quote](dying laughing) at this. 2 pool tables!
fang2415Quote Reply
Jesus, not even has there not been a deal today, mlbtr hasn’t even updated its Cubs page. Boooooooo.
/What is that’d
fang2415Quote Reply
[quote name=fang2415]Wow, that does make an already-awesome feature even awesomer. Although it’s now going to be even harder to read blogs without discovering results of the previous night’s games. (dying laughing)
If there was a single ultra-nerdy thing I wish TV networks picked up on, it would be to put an LI meter on the screen during games. Okay, maybe wOBA and that.[/quote]I’d like the leverage meter, that’d be pretty sweet. It would annoy me less than the BA w/RISP crap.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=fang2415]Jesus, not even has there not been a deal today, mlbtr hasn’t even updated its Cubs page. Boooooooo.
/What is that’d[/quote]I know, it’s weird. The lines all went dead silent. Everyone’s holding their breath?
binkyQuote Reply
[quote name=fang2415]Jesus, not even has there not been a deal today, mlbtr hasn’t even updated its Cubs page. Boooooooo.
/What is that’d[/quote]Someone on our facebook page said Bruce Levine said the Red Sox and Cubs were back to square one with the deals but I think Bruce is making shit up. There are a couple entries on various blogs about Selig stepping in though.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]Oh, no nothing like that. (dying laughing) But don’t forget to include PSG in that fascist firm lot, either.[/quote]Forza Livorno!
uncle daveQuote Reply
[quote name=Rice Cube]Someone on our facebook page said Bruce Levine said the Red Sox and Cubs were back to square one with the deals but I think Bruce is making shit up. There are a couple entries on various blogs about Selig stepping in though.[/quote]Kap is the only Cubs guy who seems to have a reliable source. Sullivan just repubs everything he reads in the Boston papers, and the rest are silent or lying.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
(dying laughing) WTF.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=Rice Cube]
(dying laughing) WTF.[/quote]I believe that is the same paper that ran “Ike Beats Tina to Death” as the headline for Ike Turner’s obituary.
uncle daveQuote Reply
[quote name=Nick Cafardo]Sox-Cubs working hard this afternoon to get a deal done on Theo Epstein compensation. There appears to be some progress.[/quote]
http://twitter.com/#!/nickcafardo/status/127473991026884609
GWQuote Reply
[quote name=Rice Cube]
(dying laughing) WTF.[/quote]A-rod had two hits, the Gunman only had one. Lies.
WaLiQuote Reply
[quote name=WaLi]A-rod had two hits, the Gunman only had one. Lies.[/quote]But, what was the gunman’s wOBA (weighted oppressive bastard assassination)?
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=GW]http://twitter.com/#!/nickcafardo/status/127473991026884609[/quote]I wonder if the threat of Selig interference is forcing their hand.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
GBTSQuote Reply
[quote name=GBTS]
[/quote]ZZ said Cutler was crushing the shit out of the ball.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=GW]http://twitter.com/#!/nickcafardo/status/127473991026884609[/quote]Hopes….soaring…..!!
binkyQuote Reply
MLBTR thinks it’s doubtful a deal gets done today. Hard to argue with that at this point.
binkyQuote Reply
[quote name=josh]Hopes….soaring…..!![/quote]
I think it’s fair to wonder if Selig has stepped in. I think he needs this deal to get done or it would be a PR mess for MLB.
Rodrigo RamirezQuote Reply
Can someone help me understand why Theo doesn’t just resign from BOS? Obviously he’d be forfeiting pay, but the Cubs would just agree to re-compensate him for that. Then Boston gets no compensation. Seems like a simple solution, albeit one that would really piss Boston off.
Recalcitrant Blogger NateQuote Reply
[quote name=Recalcitrant Blogger Nate]Can someone help me understand why Theo doesn’t just resign from BOS? Obviously he’d be forfeiting pay, but the Cubs would just agree to re-compensate him for that. Then Boston gets no compensation. Seems like a simple solution, albeit one that would really piss Boston off.[/quote]I really think it has more to do with who he can take with him than with his actual contract. I don’t know that for sure, but that seems more logical. Could Boston block a new contract, even if he resigned?
binkyQuote Reply
[quote name=Recalcitrant Blogger Nate]Can someone help me understand why Theo doesn’t just resign from BOS? Obviously he’d be forfeiting pay, but the Cubs would just agree to re-compensate him for that. Then Boston gets no compensation. Seems like a simple solution, albeit one that would really piss Boston off.[/quote]There’s probably a non-compete clause in his contract
WenningtonsGorillaCockQuote Reply
[quote name=WenningtonsGorillaCock]There’s probably a non-compete clause in his contract[/quote]Yeah, I’d expect most teams have protection like that built into most of their FO contracts.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
http://espn.go.com/college-sports/story/_/id/7131557/missouri-tigers-give-chancellor-authority-strike-deal
More college football moves looming it appears…Mizzou to SEC?
Snyds01Quote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]ZZ said Cutler was crushing the shit out of the ball.[/quote]Thats cool, as long as he didn’t swear at it.
GBTSQuote Reply
[quote name=GBTS]Thats cool, as long as he didn’t swear at it.[/quote]Dan Pompei is a fucking dumbass.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
Oh, and MO ———> found a dissertation area and an advisor.
Will express my relief by drinking many hoppy beers tonight.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
Peasants! Was there any Theo news?
BerseliusQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]Oh, and MO ———> found a dissertation area and an advisor.
Will express my relief by drinking many hoppy beers tonight.[/quote]Congrats! May your dissertation be fruitful and your advisor not be a total ass.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=WenningtonsGorillaCock]There’s probably a non-compete clause in his contract[/quote]Maybe the Red Sox are dumb and his CNC only prevents him being a General Manager elsewhere.
/Not likely’d
GBTSQuote Reply
[quote name=Berselius]Peasants! Was there any Theo news?[/quote]Nay m’lord!
GBTSQuote Reply
[quote name=Berselius]Peasants! Was there any Theo news?[/quote]Nay, m’lord. Just some bleating from yonder ivory tower.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]Dan Pompei is a fucking dumbass.[/quote]Fact: Jay Cutler is the first professional athlete to speak ill of his coaching staff during play, ever.
GBTSQuote Reply
[quote name=Recalcitrant Blogger Nate]Can someone help me understand why Theo doesn’t just resign from BOS? Obviously he’d be forfeiting pay, but the Cubs would just agree to re-compensate him for that. Then Boston gets no compensation. Seems like a simple solution, albeit one that would really piss Boston off.[/quote]He wouldn’t be able to work for the Cubs if he quit.
mb21Quote Reply
First time in a couple days the Boston media has said a deal is getting closer: http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/extra_bases/2011/10/growing_optimis.html
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=Rice Cube]Congrats! May your dissertation be fruitful and your advisor not be a total ass.[/quote]Thanks! He won’t be. I’ve admired his work for a long time, he’s a very nice and well-respected figure in the field, and our approaches to the topic are very consonant.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=GBTS]Fact: Jay Cutler is the first professional athlete to speak ill of his coaching staff during play, ever.[/quote]I love that McMahon was his counterexample. (dying laughing) (dying laughing) (dying laughing)
Also, those quotes…not at all apt.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
Have to wait at least a few more days to hear about it: http://www.bostonherald.com/blogs/sports/red_sox/index.php/2011/10/21/doubtful-that-red-sox-cubs-will-resolve-theo-epstein-talks-today/
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=Brett at Bleacher Nation]I’ve just heard from a source that the problem is John Henry – the negotiating teams have had deals in place multiple times (hence the reports yesterday and before), but Henry nixed them when it came time for sign-off. He’s pissed Theo is leaving, and he also knows he’s got a PR nightmare on his hands in Boston – he wants a win, and he wants to make the Cubs/Theo pay. So, he’s being completely unreasonable.
[/quote]
.
GWQuote Reply
[quote name=mb21]First time in a couple days the Boston media has said a deal is getting closer: http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/extra_bases/2011/10/growing_optimis.html%5B/quote%5DI have almost no doubt Selig stepped in and told Lucchino and Henry enough was enough now.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
That article says the sides aren’t any closer.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=mb21]Have to wait at least a few more days to hear about it: http://www.bostonherald.com/blogs/sports/red_sox/index.php/2011/10/21/doubtful-that-red-sox-cubs-will-resolve-theo-epstein-talks-today/%5B/quote%5DYeah, they’ll have to wait until Tuesday now.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
Yeah when I think of Jim McMahon, I think of a class act who both earned respect AND gave it. (dying laughing)
Oh yeah, I also think of a less talented quarterback than Jay Cutler.
GBTSQuote Reply
Henry can’t win. He needs to learn when to walk away from the table. He’s lost the PR battle, and if Selig steps in to arbitrate, he’ll lose there, too.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]I have almost no doubt Selig stepped in and told Lucchino and Henry enough was enough now.[/quote]Maybe, but I’m much less convinced that the problem is the Red Sox. It seems to me most unbiased reports that have come out have indicated the problem exists on both sides, which is typical in these situations. I don’t believe shit a Cubs reporter says about whose fault it is and I don’t believe a word any of the Boston people say either.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]I have almost no doubt Selig stepped in and told Lucchino and Henry enough was enough now.[/quote]
I completely agree. And at this point, with Henry’s unreasonable demands, it might be the only way a deal gets done.
Rodrigo RamirezQuote Reply
[quote name=GBTS]Yeah when I think of Jim McMahon, I think of a class act who both earned respect AND gave it. (dying laughing)
Oh yeah, I also think of a less talented quarterback than Jay Fiedler.[/quote]
.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]Henry can’t win. He needs to learn when to walk away from the table. He’s lost the PR battle, and if Selig steps in to arbitrate, he’ll lose there, too.[/quote]Yeah, that’s what makes no sense to me. That battle was over the moment Theo accepted the deal with the Cubs. I know people aren’t always rational, but I have a hard time believing someone who has built the organization he has is so incredibly stupid. Actually, I don’t believe it.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=mb21]Maybe, but I’m much less convinced that the problem is the Red Sox. It seems to me most unbiased reports that have come out have indicated the problem exists on both sides, which is typical in these situations. I don’t believe shit a Cubs reporter says about whose fault it is and I don’t believe a word any of the Boston people say either.[/quote]Fair enough, but what’s now being reported would accord with much of what people have been saying about Henry and Lucchino for a while now, and, like I said yesterday, keep in mind that Theo has already resigned once because the behavior of these two. I’m sure the Cubs have been offering Clevenger and Dolis and stalling in their own way, but Henry and Lucchino have a reputation that is now being borne out by the rumors.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
Keep in mind that Edes was singing the same tune as Levine/Kaplan yesterday. I think that at least one of the leaks was on MLB’s end or at least someone not named henry/lucchino on the red sox side.
GWQuote Reply
[quote name=mb21]Yeah, that’s what makes no sense to me. That battle was over the moment Theo accepted the deal with the Cubs. I know people aren’t always rational, but I have a hard time believing someone who has built the organization he has is so incredibly stupid. Actually, I don’t believe it.[/quote]It’s very odd behavior, but people behave in odd ways when these things become personal.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]Fair enough, but what’s now being reported would accord with much of what people have been saying about Henry and Lucchino for a while now, and, like I said yesterday, keep in mind that Theo has already resigned once because the behavior of these two. I’m sure the Cubs have been offering Clevenger and Dolis and stalling in their own way, but Henry and Lucchino have a reputation that is now being borne out by the rumors.[/quote]I’m pretty sure Theo has always had a close relationship with Henry, but it was Lucchino who pissed him off prior to him resigning after 2005.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]It’s very odd behavior, but people behave in odd ways when these things become personal.[/quote]Yeah, that’s true, but I just have difficult in believing something like that without better evidence. Read about this from the Boston media and it’s been the Cubs fault. Gammons and even a Cubs reporters claimed the Cubs were retarded and that was the problem. I feel like we’re focusing on a select few and probably biased reports when we conclude it’s all henry/Lucchino.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=mb21]I’m pretty sure Theo has always had a close relationship with Henry, but it was Lucchino who pissed him off prior to him resigning after 2005.[/quote]I get the impression it was close until then, and has been love/hate since then. There’s also suspicion that Henry’s interest in his new toy, Liverpool FC, has put some handcuffs on Theo’s operation. I can’t imagine him being too thrilled about that prospect.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
Furthermore, I’d also point out again that Ricketts has a tendency to take things very slowly and get what he wants. That doesn’t mean that’s what has gone on here, but the guy has a very long history of taking his time.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=mb21]Yeah, that’s true, but I just have difficult in believing something like that without better evidence. Read about this from the Boston media and it’s been the Cubs fault. Gammons and even a Cubs reporters claimed the Cubs were retarded and that was the problem. I feel like we’re focusing on a select few and probably biased reports when we conclude it’s all henry/Lucchino.[/quote]Yeah, that’s probably true. I’m just saying that these two, and especially Lucchino, have a rep as being very difficult, and that’s when it’s not personal.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=mb21]Furthermore, I’d also point out again that Ricketts has a tendency to take things very slowly and get what he wants. That doesn’t mean that’s what has gone on here, but the guy has a very long history of taking his time.[/quote]Yeah, and in this case, I think that’s the smart move. Let the Red Sox punch themselves out here.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]I get the impression it was close until then, and has been love/hate since then. There’s also suspicion that Henry’s interest in his new toy, Liverpool FC, has put some handcuffs on Theo’s operation. I can’t imagine him being too thrilled about that prospect.[/quote]I guess what I’ve read prior to all of this (don’t believe anything written about their relationship since to be honest) is that Theo and Lucchino really hit it off after Theo came back and that Theo remained very close to Henry. I thought it was odd that Rays fans were so adamant that Friedman wouldn’t go anywhere because of his relationship with their owner, but didn’t think twice about Theo leaving despite his close relationship with the owner.
In the end, I don’t think we’re ever going to know and that’s fine with me. I really don’t care whose fault it is. I don’t care if Tom Ricketts begins every phone call with Henry laughing his ass off at the PR disaster Henry has. I don’t care if Henry and/or Lucchino think this in some way hurts Theo either. I just want the deal done. The reality is that the blame isn’t likely 100% on either side, but probably closer to 60-40. It just doesn’t matter to me.
mb21Quote Reply
Muskat says the Cubs have not asked MLB for permission to announce this deal during the WS. http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20111020&content_id=25724376&vkey=news_chc&c_id=chc&partnerId=rss_chc
I just don’t believe any one regarding this shit. Let me know when Theo is sitting at the mic talking about his new job.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=mb21]Muskat says the Cubs have not asked MLB for permission to announce this deal during the WS. http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20111020&content_id=25724376&vkey=news_chc&c_id=chc&partnerId=rss_chc
I just don’t believe any one regarding this shit. Let me know when Theo is sitting at the mic talking about his new job.[/quote]Yeah, at this point, when you factor in the general incompetence of your average BBWAA member and the amount of misinforamtion likely being spread by both sides, there’s no reason to put a lot of stock in anything that comes out until his picture is on the official site.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
Theo Held Hostage: Day 10
Snyds01Quote Reply
[quote name=Snyds01]Theo Held Hostage: Day 10
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
I think OV needs to make a FREE THEO EPSTEIN shirt, without interpose delay.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
Also, that comment entitles me to 5% royalties. (dying laughing)
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=mb21]Muskat says the Cubs have not asked MLB for permission to announce this deal during the WS. http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20111020&content_id=25724376&vkey=news_chc&c_id=chc&partnerId=rss_chc
I just don’t believe any one regarding this shit. Let me know when Theo is sitting at the mic talking about his new job.[/quote]I think that’s the only sane course at this point.
binkyQuote Reply
I just realized that the only reason I ever liked/didn’t hate the Red Sox was that they had Epstein, were sabermetric, and were the Yankees rivals. I now feel free to hate the Red Sox because the Cubs are getting Epstein and I’d rather root for the Rays anyway.
Recalcitrant Blogger NateQuote Reply
[quote name=Recalcitrant Blogger Nate]I just realized that the only reason I ever liked/didn’t hate the Red Sox was that they had Epstein, were sabermetric, and were the Yankees rivals. I now feel free to hate the Red Sox because the Cubs are getting Epstein and I’d rather root for the Rays anyway.[/quote]
Rays fanbase ——> Now at 3 (dying laughing)
MishQuote Reply
[quote name=Recalcitrant Blogger Nate]I just realized that the only reason I ever liked/didn’t hate the Red Sox was that they had Epstein, were sabermetric, and were the Yankees rivals. I now feel free to hate the Red Sox because the Cubs are getting Epstein and I’d rather root for the Rays anyway.[/quote]
Good…good…
Rice CubeQuote Reply
Of the 30 teams in baseball, I have strong opinions for 3 of them. The Cubs are my favorite team. I like the Yankees and I hate the Red Sox. The Red Sox and their fans are nothing but a bunch of crybaby fuckwads.
mb21Quote Reply
I replaced the Draft Race with something more appropriate for now.
Aisle424Quote Reply
FREE THEO EPSTEIN
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Aisle424]I replaced the Draft Race with something more appropriate for now.[/quote]That’s awesome.
mb21Quote Reply
I’d just like to say that I couldn’t care less that Pujols didn’t talk to the media (same with some other Cardinals).
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=mb21]I’d just like to say that I couldn’t care less that Pujols didn’t talk to the media (same with some other Cardinals).[/quote]I doubt most people really did either. Care, that is.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=Aisle424]I replaced the Draft Race with something more appropriate for now.[/quote]Well played.
MishQuote Reply
[quote name=mb21]I’d just like to say that I couldn’t care less that Pujols didn’t talk to the media (same with some other Cardinals).[/quote]The calcium deficient ass tumors on South Fl sports radio were arguing tonight that not talking to the media would cost Pujols at least 10 million on his next contract. Obviously, that was followed up with the “he is not mentally strong enough for New York, Boston or Philadelphia” line of diarrhea.
cdwQuote Reply
WTF, part 2…
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/blog/big_league_stew/post/The-squirrel-taxidermy-business-is-booming-in-St?urn=mlb-wp25037
Also, Lance Berkman defends STL:
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/blog/big_league_stew/post/Lance-Berkman-defends-Game-2-8242-s-early-clubh?urn=mlb-wp25046
Well done, Fat Elvis.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
So, Pujols’ error, putting the go ahead run in scoring position “had really anything to do with that game?” I’m sorry but that’s flat out bullshit. I get that Lance is going to cover and justify for his guys but his excuse is flat out not true. Pujols played a key role in that loss.
I’m not taking the side of the reporters claiming this is the worst thing to every happen but let’s not give false alibis either. If the Cardinals can take questions after a win then they should be available to take questions after a loss. Like it or not, it’s the World Series and part of their job is to take questions after the game.
melissaQuote Reply
Yeah, I don’t really care about how they snubbed the press, personally, but I won’t take their side when reporters complain about them, either. They brought the criticism on themselves.
ACTQuote Reply
[quote name=melissa]So, Pujols’ error, putting the go ahead run in scoring position “had really anything to do with that game?” I’m sorry but that’s flat out bullshit. I get that Lance is going to cover and justify for his guys but his excuse is flat out not true. Pujols played a key role in that loss.
I’m not taking the side of the reporters claiming this is the worst thing to every happen but let’s not give false alibis either. If the Cardinals can take questions after a win then they should be available to take questions after a loss. Like it or not, it’s the World Series and part of their job is to take questions after the game.[/quote]I agree with you about Pujols having a big role in the loss due to the poor defensive play. I was more interested in how Lance Berkman explained the media setup in the World Series though. If there was a lapse of communication between the media and STL’s PR department then the media blew it out of proportion.
Either way I don’t think it’s a big deal. Sure it’s nice to have the insight of a star player after a loss but the media getting butthurt about it is really silly.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
The media set up is the same after a win or a loss. Were they unavailable after the win? Will they be unavailable after every game? The Cards were in the WS in 06 and they know how it works. TLR and Pujols both are used to having their asses kissed by the St. Louis yocals and this looks like they don’t want to face the music when things go bad. It’s just silly to justify them stomping off after a loss. If this is how MLB is going to allow players to act after games then they ought to just end all post-game interviews. The World Series is the only thing MLB wants the media to report on right now so they better make sure their players understand they have to be available after games. Whether the media whines about it too much or not really isn’t the issue to me.
melissaQuote Reply
[quote name=melissa]The media set up is the same after a win or a loss. Were they unavailable after the win? Will they be unavailable after every game? The Cards were in the WS in 06 and they know how it works. TLR and Pujols both are used to having their asses kissed by the St. Louis yocals and this looks like they don’t want to face the music when things go bad. It’s just silly to justify them stomping off after a loss. If this is how MLB is going to allow players to act after games then they ought to just end all post-game interviews. The World Series is the only thing MLB wants the media to report on right now so they better make sure their players understand they have to be available after games. Whether the media whines about it too much or not really isn’t the issue to me.[/quote]I think the bolded part is important. I don’t know whether the players were being pissy or not but if they do it again this World Series then they’re stupid because it’s been pretty much spelled out that they can’t do this after the latest media hissy fit.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
I wouldn’t stand up for the players. They don’t need me to and they don’t care if I do or don’t. I just don’t care if they show up to talk to the media or not.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=Rice Cube]I think the bolded part is important. I don’t know whether the players were being pissy or not but if they do it again this World Series then they’re stupid because it’s been pretty much spelled out that they can’t do this after the latest media hissy fit.[/quote]I don’t think they care, RC. Pujols once told a reporter to go sit in the corner. Seriously. He told an adult human being to go sit in the corner. This wasn’t a couple years ago. This was back in 2004 (maybe 2005). I can’t imagine what he’s said since considering how much bigger his ego has gotten.
mb21Quote Reply
It’s finally final. Done deal. Sealed. Theo has officially resigned from the Red Sox. Cubs and Red Sox have released joint statement. Our long national nightmare is over. (dying laughing)
melissaQuote Reply
Press conference will be Tuesday.
melissaQuote Reply
No longer an irresponsible rumor:
http://chicago.cubs.mlb.com/news/press_releases/press_release.jsp?ymd=20111021&content_id=25745026&vkey=pr_chc&fext=.jsp&c_id=chc
melissaQuote Reply
Fuck yes!!!
Rodrigo RamirezQuote Reply
What’s funny is that they still could not decide on compensation (dying laughing)
Rodrigo RamirezQuote Reply
I’m glad I can stop searching Google News and paying more attention to twitter than I have to. (dying laughing)
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=Rodrigo Ramirez]What’s funny is that they still could not decide on compensation (dying laughing)[/quote]
This has Daddy Bud written all over it. (dying laughing)
melissaQuote Reply
new thread up
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=Rodrigo Ramirez]What’s funny is that they still could not decide on compensation (dying laughing)[/quote](dying laughing) when I read that part of the statement. It sounds like Selig might have stepped in and told both sides to quit fucking around.
Let the Epstein era begin! All the bullshit aside from the process, this is a great move by Ricketts.
cwolfQuote Reply
[quote name=melissa]This has Daddy Bud written all over it. (dying laughing)[/quote]
Oh, ABSOLUTELY.
Rodrigo RamirezQuote Reply