Rethinking Pitching Philosophies, Derek Johnson, and Carlos Gomez

In Commentary And Analysis by GW29 Comments

Cubs Den has a post up drawing attention to a Baseball America article on changes in the Cubs’ organizational philosophy related to developing pitching talent. The BA piece focuses on new pitching coordinator Derek Johnson, formerly the pitching coach at Vanderbilt, which famously produced David Price, Mike Minor, Sonny Gray, and many others on his watch. Johnson is of the school of thought that pitchers today generally don’t throw enough, and is an advocate of long toss as a method of building up arm strength. While I don’t know enough to have strong opinions on that matter, it did remind of Carlos Gomez, who in a brief stint writing for The Hardball Times in 2007 meticulously dissected pitching and hitting mechanics from scouting videos.

Gomez is currently the international scouting director for the LAAofAA, having also served in that role for the Diamondbacks. The BA article reminded me of Gomez because it was in one of his pieces that I first became aware of Derek Johnson.

Vanderbilt’s pitching coach, Derek Johnson, and I share many views on mechanics. By the way, Mr. Johnson knows what he’s talking about. Send your kids to Vanderbilt to get the best pitching instruction possible.

What exactly are Gomez’s views?

For the most part, I prefer “athletes who pitch.” Athletes move quickly. Athletes get it and go and don’t think about it too much…I like violence. I like aggressive, twisting sonsabitches who “go after it.”

His scouting breakdowns predictably praised pitchers who drifted through their balance point, took long, aggressive strides toward the plate, and accompanied their approaches with short arm actions. This positive take on Jake Peavy is a typical example, as is this criticism of newly-signed Cub Dontrelle Willis. I don’t think it’s safe to assume that Johnson and Gomez agree on all the finer points of pitching, but I would guess is there is considerable overlap. 

Gomez definitely has some retrospective misses in his prospect evaluation, but on the whole, he does pretty well. Take his top five pitchers from the 2007 draft, for example:

1) LHP David Price, Devil Rays (First overall)
2) RHP Rick Porcello, Tigers (27th overall)
3) RHP Jarrod Parker, DiamondBacks (ninth overall)
4) LHP Madison Bumgarner, Giants (tenth overall)
5) RHP Casey Weathers, Rockies (eighth overall)

He also happens to be the first scout I read who at all criticized Josh Vitters‘s swing:

However, Vitters seems to get “extended” maybe even farther in front than Moustakas, and does not let the ball travel deep into the zone…(Bad in terms of power.)

If you have some free time, it’s worth browsing his archives. They are interesting in their own right, and may indirectly shed some light on the organization’s current take on pitching.

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  1. Author
    GW

    Btw, I don’t have a BA subscription, so if anyone wants to pass along an interesting snippet or two from it, that would be much appreciated.

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  4. dmick89

    Nice article, GW

    @ GW:

    “From an organizational depth standpoint, we have depth in the upper levels but we’re lacking in impact power arms, especially starters,” said McLeod, a club vice president who is essentially the scouting and farm director. “We have some interesting bullpen arms, but we’re lacking in power starters.”

    Some tweaks to The Cubs Way!!!!

    McLeod says Johnson’s ideas fit well with those the new front office put into a manual for the organization. He said there have been some “tweaks” to the new Cubs’ Way since Johnson’s hiring, but that his influence will come mostly in one-on-one work.

    Johnson believes pitchers often “under-throw, under-prepare,” but that doesn’t mean the Cubs will have a one-size-fits-all approach to training pitchers.

    “What we do at Triple-A will be different from what we do in short-season (leagues), low A,” he said. “We’ll be trying to find certain things that will work for the individual.”

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  6. dmick89

    Hayden Simpson, the Cubs’ 2010 first-rounder, has never come close to throwing as well as he did at Southern Arkansas, leaving McLeod to say the hope remains he “finds his stuff again.”

    There’s always hope, but I’m pretty sure there ain’t nothing fixing Simpson.

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  7. dmick89

    “We want to see what we have with him (Arodys Vizcaino) as a starter,” McLeod said. “We’ve seen at times three quality pitches out of him—a big fastball, an electric slider (and a decent changeup).”

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  8. dmick89

    It will be a shock if the Cubs don’t take Indiana State lefty Sean Manaea or another power pitcher from the college ranks. Stanford’s Mark Appel, Arkansas’ Ryne Stanek, Mississippi’s Bobby Wahl and Florida’s duo of Jonathon Crawford and Karsten Whitson will be scouted closely.

    Manaea, who wasn’t drafted out of high school, is the buzz guy after dominating the Cape Cod League in a summer when juiced balls led to an offensive explosion. He works in the mid-90s with a hard slider and has a funky delivery, like the White Sox’s Chris Sale.

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  12. dmick89

    @ Rice Cube:
    I thought that was odd too. Still liked the article. Then again, I view the HOF as a museum and not a shrine. I have a very hard time believing it was ever the intention of the HOF or MLB to create a shrine instead of a museum. I think you have to be foolish to think that was their intent.

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  13. Author
    GW

    dmick89 wrote:

    Stanford’s Mark Appel

    Appel could really get screwed. A ton of pressure to take whatever he is offered if the Cubs opt to go that direction.

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  14. dmick89

    @ GW:
    Would he decline and play a year of independent ball? If he did, would he have to re-enter the draft? He would, right?

    If so, he’s really fucked and kind of stupid for not agreeing to what the Astros were willing to pay last year. I wouldn’t pay him a dollar more than what the Astros had reportedly offered (~$6 millionish). He has no leverage.

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  17. dmick89

    @ GW:
    Yep. That’s right.

    I’m really surprised he didn’t sign. I just don’t see how he’s going to be more valuable this year with even less leverage (and a year older).

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  18. dmick89

    @ GW:
    I think I read an article about that possibility for another player and it’s not as easy as it sounds. If you think about it, it makes sense too. What Japanese team is going to sign a relatively inexperienced pitcher to a 1-year contract? The reality is that Appel probably won’t even be good enough to go directly to Japan. My guess is that he’ll start in the lower minors and would be in tough shape if he was to start at AAA, which is roughly the equivalent of Japan.

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  21. SVB

    Thanks GW.

    THIS is the most exciting Cubs news I’ve seen since they called up Rizzo, and I believe it’ll be the new “market inefficiency” because the Cubs will have a deeper, healthier well of pitching talent as a result. This is progress. Real progress. Not just Hope Monsterism.

    You know all those pitchers on the HOF ballot next year we’ve been discussing for the last 12 threads. They all were pitching >150 innings in the minors (not sure about Mussina). Somewhere I read that in the last few years only one pitcher did. Chris Volstad. Obviously pitching more in the minors doesn’t guarantee success, but pitching quality has greatly eroded.

    The key is to know when a pitcher is tired and not let himself pitch after that. As soon as the mechanics fall off, he’s out. But if he’s still going strong at 120 pitches, or 170 innings. It’s fine. Just like moving furniture. Lift right and you can do it all day. Lift with your back or after you are really tired, and bad things are bound to happen.

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  23. dmick89

    @ SVB:
    There’s no market inefficiency here. Teams have long thought a tons of pitching talent was the key to success and at least two organizations (Rangers and I’m pretty sure the Braves) have been extending their pitchers in the minor leagues for a few years now. I’m sure there are other teams doing it too.

    Once one team does it and has success, they all do it. The Rangers have had some success and now everyone else is just catching up.

    The takeaway for me is that Johnson is pretty good at developing talent. He’s obviously not going to have pitchers in A ball throwing a shitload of pitches as he basically said. By the time they get to the high minors they will and I don’t think that’s uncommon at all and I don’t really know that it’s different than what the Cubs had done in previous years.

    I looked at only Jay Jackson and he threw 127 innings in his first full professional season and then 157 the following year. Casey Coleman threw 149 at the age of 21.

    There were 22 pitchers who threw more than 150 innings in AAA in 2011 (doesn’t even count innings they may have thrown at AA or MLB) and 17 in 2012. Factor in additional innings in other leagues, including the fall and winter leagues and there are dozens who throw over 150 innings in the minors each year.

    I like the sound of what the Cubs are doing and I like what I’ve heard from Johnson and what I’ve read about him, but I don’t think the Cubs are rewriting the book on pitching here.

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  27. dmick89

    @ Myles:
    I remember being really excited about Jackson. Same thing with McNutt. Good examples of why it’s important to hold off being too excited until the player has shown he can perform at the higher levels in the minor leagues.

    Right now the Cubs have some interesting talent in the minor leagues and a lot more than they did a year or two ago, but it’s all in the low minors. Hopefully we’ll get a chance to see what Baez can do in AA this year. I’ll feel a lot more confident about his future once he gets there (and plays well). I think Soler getting to AA would be great, but I think it’s probably a stretch.

    The pitchers in this organization have barely pitched professionally so it’s going to be awhile before we really know what we have with them.

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  29. Andrew

    @ dmick89:

    One thing I have heard is that in general it is a lot healthier to pitch more sessions of less pitches than less sessions of more pitches. i.e. throwing 120 pitches in a game once every five days is less healthy than 20 pitches every day for five days. Keeping young pitchers healthy may not be a market inefficiency but it sure as hell has been a Cubs inefficiency so for that reason i think Derek Johnson will make the cubs organization a lot better because it will help fix a huge problem hopefully

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