Dale Scott signals ball dead (click to view larger image)
The ball is clearly fair. The umpire clearly signals the ball dead. The Dodgers played through the dead call and the Padres did not. I'm also positive had the sides been reversed (Dodgers on the bases) the Padres would have been the team that played through the dead ball call.
So what we have is the defense playing through the play regardless of what the umpire says or does. The catcher may not have been able to see the home plate umpire (he was behind him!), but I'm pretty sure the umpire would have verbalized the play in some way. Regardless of whether he did or not, the rest of the fielders saw the umpire signal the ball dead and still threw the ball around the horn for the triple play.
This type of play sucks. On one hand I'm thinking the play should be over. The umpire signaled it as such so the Padres not running makes sense. On the other hand the Dodgers ignored this and played through it. On one hand you have a premature call that shouldn't have happened and on the other you have one set of players that let the play develop. Let's face it. Once the umpire calls the play dead the runners are going to stop.
However, I have spent years arguing that MLB needs to get more plays right and it's because of that I can't argue that the wrong call was made here. The ball is fair. The Padres, like the Dodgers did, could have disregarded the umpire's signal and played through it. And that is what should happen in the future in my opinion. You've got one side playing and asking questions later and the other side not. It's an obvious disadvantage.
Had the ball been ruled dead and the runners sent back to their bases, the Dodgers would have been pissed and rightfully so. They would have gotten 2 on that play had the Padres run. The ball is ruled fair and the Padres are rightfully pissed. But the end result is that the correct call was made and the side that disregarded the umpire's initial ruling was correct in doing so.
The baserunners should play through similar plays just like the defense does.
Comments
Seems like (unconsciously), you had one team gambling that the “dead ball” call would stand, because they knew they were already behind the 8-ball on the play. In other words, even after the throws started, the Padres knew they were f’d. So they stayed pat, hoping that the play would be reversed. If they start running, they still have at least two outs.
BrettQuote Reply
I guess none of that addresses the essential question … because it’s a really hard one.
BrettQuote Reply
There’s no penalty for continuing the play until the umpire makes you go back to the previous base etc. Unless the umpire is particularly chippy that day, I doubt anything would come of trying to play through a would-be dead ball. It does suck for the Padres, but the ump had a poor signal which froze the runners or made them think the play was dead.
It’s similar to football where flags are thrown and players continue after the whistle until everything gets sorted out. Make the play first, ask questions later.
If they ever implement replay though, I think they are going to have to work on how continuation plays would end up once the review was done.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
@ Brett:
I think because the batter had recoiled out of the box, they would still have had time to get the triple play. The chief complaint from yesterday and this morning as I’ve read is that the umpire didn’t signal properly that it was a live ball.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
I think the ump was trying to indicate it was fair, but threw his hands up as if to say “no play”…it looked like at the end of the play that he ejected SD’s manager, which annoys me as well.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
@ Rice Cube:
Bochy did get tossed, as would any manager in that situation not named Mike Quade.
Aisle424Quote Reply
There may be a worry (from the batter’s point of view) that if he starts running towards first, it would influence the umpire’s decision (making it more likely for him to call it fair). Sort of like how batters will “sell” an HBP.
ACTQuote Reply
Tough situation. Shitty for the Padres
bubblesdachimpQuote Reply
It appears that the ball lands foul behind the plate and catcher scoops it up as it touches the plate. Is all of the plate fair?
BobQuote Reply
I mean in football if you dont hear a whistle you play the play out…
bubblesdachimpQuote Reply
@ bubblesdachimp:
A bit more difficult in baseball since umps don’t have whistles so the players have to rely on hand signals or what they can hear. Which is part of the reason why the Padres got screwed. Though they probably would’ve been screwed anyway since the batter was trying to sell a HBP or at least get out of the way.
@ Aisle424:
Bochy manages the Giants now. I think that was Bud Black.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
Strasburg: 98 mph fastball, 79 mph curveball. So not fair.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
@ Brett:
Yeah, I don’t really know what the correct call is. All I know is that I think the play should stand. The ball was fair. One team was getting screwed on that either way. I’d rather just go with the correct call.
mb21Quote Reply
Rice Cube wrote:
Yes exactly, RC. If baseball had more replay that would become the typical response from all players on these plays.
mb21Quote Reply
@ Bob:
The plate is fair, but it looked to me like he picked up in front of the plate.
mb21Quote Reply
@ Aisle424:
Yeah, one manager was going to get tossed on that play. It would be whichever one the call went against and they’d have strong arguments in both cases. It’s just a weird play.
mb21Quote Reply
@ mb21:
Yeah this is a weird play. The shit Eric Gregg was pulling the in the DET-BOS game, OTOH, was an affront to all non-blind beings.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
At the I-Cus game. No Vitters or Rizzo 🙁
BerseliusQuote Reply
If the umpire signaled the ball dead, then it’s dead. This isn’t Vietnam. There are rules.
GBTSQuote Reply
This kind of thing is very rare. On the other hand, it would be relatively simple to introduce a machine strike/ball caller. Maybe they’re moving that direction with all the stadiums having Pitch FX now.
Of course, if you go all automated, you have to deal with an umpire union.
joshQuote Reply
@ GBTS:
When the umpire signals a possible home run as foul, the play is also dead. What you’re saying is that a mistake shouldn’t be corrected. I couldn’t disagree more.
mb21Quote Reply
I figure one team was getting screwed, Is it better that the Dodgers get screwed? That’s at least 2 outs and probably 3. Or is it better that the Padres do? Given the very likely outcome had it been called fair from the start, I think it’s obvious the team that was going to get fucked the most was the Dodgers by the wrong call.
mb21Quote Reply
Oh, Vitters is DHing
BerseliusQuote Reply
Strasburg —> Marmol mode
Rice CubeQuote Reply
And just missed a hr
What happened to Marquez Smith? Amazega is playing 3b tonight here
BerseliusQuote Reply
@ mb21:
I was mostly being sarcastic, but what you’re describing is also a completely different kind of “dead.” That’s one where they can talk and review all day and the result will be completely fair. There are no baserunners being hung out to dry.
This was a shitty situation because it was so bizarre, so I agree that either way a team was getting screwed. But for an umpire to throw up his hands and call a dead ball, and then basically say, “Just kidding” when the other team doesn’t listen, well I think that’s pretty shitty.
GBTSQuote Reply
Rick Ankiel is amazing.
GBTSQuote Reply
mb21 wrote:
If any and all mistakes can be corrected, then there’s no point in even having umpires on the field.
I’m all for looking at replay when it’s available and using it to make correct calls with the fairest possible results, that’s not what happened here. Baserunners were told a ball was dead, and then it magically wasn’t. That’s just not fair.
GBTSQuote Reply
Think about the line drives down the line that you’ve seen the umpire initially call foul and then fair. If we switch to this “play is dead” thing, there are going to be a lot more bad calls.
mb21Quote Reply
I also hate the NFL rule that if your team recovers a fumble, even after a ref blows the play dead on the field, you can still get possession if it gets overturned. It makes whistles meaningless, and if whistles are meaningless, we don’t even need refs. Just let teams play like its a pickup game and go to video replay when they argue.
GBTSQuote Reply
I also saw Campana throw a zero-hopper fro deepIsh LF to the catcher. Just a little offline.
/amazed gif I’m too lazy to look up on my phone
BerseliusQuote Reply
mb21 wrote:
I don’t really think this is common.
GBTSQuote Reply
GBTS wrote:
It’s shitty, but it’s also an umpire correcting his own bad call. The funny thing is I actually buy the excuse. To me it looks like Scott is trying to not make contact with the catcher initially then calls the play dead and immediately calls it fair.
This should teach baserunners to play through the play, but it won’t. When it happens again they’ll be all confused while the defense is doing what they should be doing.
mb21Quote Reply
@ GBTS:
(dying laughing) no, it’s not like it happens a couple times a game, but I’ve seen it many times. Sometimes you make the opposite signal you intend to make and it’s quickly corrected. I think this is one of them. I think the problem is the way he tried to avoid contact with the catcher.
Correcting a call is actually part of the rules: Each umpire team should work out a simple set of signals, so the proper umpire can always right a manifestly wrong decision when convinced he has made an error.
I don’t have any idea what that signal is, but the umpire did signal fair and that’s not something they’re required to do. They’re only required to signal when the ball is foul. All the 3B and 1B umps signalling fair is just for fun because it’s fair unless they signal foul. There is no fair signal.
mb21Quote Reply
I agree with you MB that we should do whatever we can to make sure the calls on the field are correct, but the reason we want calls to be correct is because we want the action on the field to be valid. But in this situation, calling the play “correctly” led to an invalid result. There is no triple play in that situation if the umpire doesn’t initially call the ball dead. The baserunners were frozen when they otherwise wouldn’t have been.
It’s not like calling the ball fair resulted in what would have normally happened under proper circumstances. This should be the goal when we “correct” bad calls on the field, whether its by replay or umpires getting together and talking it out.
GBTSQuote Reply
This is why the umpire should be fined. He clearly messed up beyond the error he made.
mb21Quote Reply
The problem on the play wasnt’ whether the ball was fair or foul, it’s that the homeplate umpire signaled foul TWICE, which is what the padres baserunners followed. If the HP ump signals foul, it’s foul, regardless, because players out of earshot will respond to his body movements and not his words. MLB should review it and at least come out with a statement.
Berselius- I believe Marquez Smith was released under the new administration
Recalcitrant Blogger NateQuote Reply
McNutt is going for short reliever of the year award. Another outing and he cant get past 4. They always yank him out after about 80 pitches
dylanjQuote Reply
@ Recalcitrant Blogger Nate:
He signaled foul once. The first was him getting out of the way, which is what they addressed later on (poor mechanics or whatever the hell they said). Actually, he never called it foul because there is no foul call. He briefly signaled that play should stop and corrected it. The problem is the way in which he got out of the way of the play. It looked like he was signaling dead ball.
Either way, this is something that can be corrected and was. The bottom line for me is this: I want the correct call made. I don’t think I’ll ever argue that the wrong call should stand.
It’s just a weird play when you consider how he moved out of the way of the play. I would imagine the umpire will be fined and i think he should be.
mb21Quote Reply
How did we miss Marquez Smith getting released? All three of his fans are on this blog.
BerseliusQuote Reply
@ dylanj:
McNutt has been anything but impressive since reaching AA as we’ve talked about before. He’s not close to the pitcher we had hoped he might become.
mb21Quote Reply
BJax got a double on a grounder up the middle. He has sneaky speed.
BerseliusQuote Reply
@ GBTS:
Wow, with an arm that strong and that accurate, he should try pitching!
ACTQuote Reply
From the classic Cards/Rox game
ACTQuote Reply
good game for B Jackson. Perez is a legit prospect so its nice to get on base vs him.
dylanjQuote Reply
@ ACT:
He’s only accurate at distances greater than 60 feet, 6 inches.
joshQuote Reply
http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=20672793&c_id=was&partnerId=aw-7437482702750431320-1047
ACTQuote Reply
@ ACT:
I remember watching that clip.
joshQuote Reply
@ dylanj:
Perez hasn’t looked all that great today. Throwing a ton of balls in the dirt, Cubs aren’t swinging. Also not getting many hits, to be fair. The 3 runs have more to do with the 4 errors. One of the 3 hits was on a check swing.
BerseliusQuote Reply
MO would have a heart attack if he saw what some of the Cubs top prospects joke about in twitter.
dylanjQuote Reply
@ dylanj:
Is it bunting?
joshQuote Reply
@ ACT:
Too bad he was never much of a hitter. He’s always had a hell of an arm.
joshQuote Reply
no its pretty much calling each other Twink and talking about how which one needs eyewash. They call themselves the exSTentourage. And Javier Baez gives shoutouts to his “niggas”.
In otherwords exactly what you expect from 18 year old millionaires
dylanjQuote Reply
@ josh:
It’s so worth it to see things like this: http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=19163499&c_id=mlb
ACTQuote Reply
@ dylanj:
Sounds like every baseball player I’ve ever met (note: I know zero professional athletes).
joshQuote Reply
I’m still watching Ankiel highlights. http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=5258191&c_id=mlb
ACTQuote Reply
And one more: http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=18547875&c_id=mlb
ACTQuote Reply
Is one of those the one where he catches a ball in deep center and then almost overthrows 1B in the air on a double-up attempt?
Rice CubeQuote Reply
@ Rice Cube:
Haven’t seen that one.
ACTQuote Reply
Wow, Lincecum’s ERA is going up. Right now it’s at 16.88.
ACTQuote Reply
@ ACT:
Giants must be plenty glad that they only signed him to that two-year deal rather than an extension…at least for now. I think Timmy can figure it out, but I wonder if that lost velocity is really screwing with him.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
Looking forward to tomorrows post. Baez hits for the cycle. Smokies almost get perfect game’d. BJax with a decent game. Michael Jensen with another solid outing. McNutt solid even though he only made it through 4. Lots of good these past couple days.
Jtsunami1Quote Reply
Leyland seems determined to have Verlander throw 200 pitches per game.
ACTQuote Reply
Verlander gets a called third strike with a 100mph fastball. His 131th pitch, with the bases loaded, clinging to a 1-run lead.
ACTQuote Reply
9-pitch walk by Brett Jackson. Thought he was gonna strike out again, proved me wrong.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
@ Rice Cube:
Shut you right up.
ACTQuote Reply
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcjet2MwUR0&feature=youtu.be
GWQuote Reply
GBTSQuote Reply
(dying laughing)
(dying laughing)
(dying laughing)
It’s like the White Sox fan / dude from the Office is trying to scam in on the Superfriends grid.
Or, if you squint, he’s like the head of the OV transformitron.
.
.
.
.
.
.
/
Suburban kidQuote Reply
@ GBTS:
What is dead may never die, but rises again,
harder and strongermore powerful than you could possibly imagineWaLiQuote Reply
@ mb21:
Umpires are specifically trained for this kind of thing. Until you are 100% sure the ball is dead, you keep your mouth shut and your arms by your side, because the moment you make your mechanics, you kill the play. If you’re not sure the ball is foul or fair you assume its fair and then change your mind later if necessary – you can’t do it the other way round because as soon as you kill the ball the players stop.
This was a badly blown call. Throwing his arms up like a rank amateur before he assessed the situation was bad enough. But then allowing the play to stand when the ball was technically dead was even worse. He called it foul, so it was foul. Once his arms went up the play was over.
ABQuote Reply
@ GBTS:
(dying laughing) (dying laughing) (dying laughing)
MishQuote Reply
AB wrote:
I kind of agree.
But, human element.
Suburban kidQuote Reply
@ AB:
I agree 100%. EVEN if it is improper mechanics, once the play is dead, it is dead.
This happens in hockey often unfortunately. The officials keep the whistles in their mouth. Sometimes they errantly blow it, and they know it and admit to it. But play stops. Sometimes drives stop, sometimes goals aren’t scored because of an early/errant whistle, but that’s the game. It prevents people from getting hurt after the whistle.
It’s kind of a different situation in baseball because people aren’t going to get hurt after the play is called dead, but you have to listen to the Umpire, otherwise as was said before, why have them? The error is with the ump and he has to be retrained or punished. But this being baseball and all, that won’t happen. It sucks it was (initially) the wrong play on the field, but that’s the way it is.
WaLiQuote Reply
AB wrote:
This is clearly not the case though. There are rules for umpires in correcting calls. The most important thing is that the call be right so on this play the most important thing was that it be ruled fair. There is nothing in the rule book that says a play is over when the umpire raises his hands as Scott did. Because of that, the idea that “he called it foul, so it was foul” or “he signaled the ball was dead, so the play is over” isn’t true.
Scott messed up and he should be fined for it, but mistakes happen. And when mistakes happen they have a system to correctly fix the mistake. Scott did that. The problem was the way in which he backed away from making contract with the catcher. That could appear to be a signal that the ball was dead, but he clearly didn’t raise his arms above his head or point to foul territory until a brief moment before correcting the call.
Regardless of that, the play isn’t dead when the umpire says the ball is foul. There’s no rule that says the players can’t play through the play and the Dodgers benefited by doing such. And that’s all that matters here. Is there a rule that says play is over? If there isn’t, the play stands as called. It would have been a mistake to consider the play dead when no rule exists.
mb21Quote Reply
mb21 wrote:
But the players (at least those on base) do stop play 100 times out of 100 when this happens. It might not be in the rule book, but this is what players do.
WaLiQuote Reply
I don’t think anybody is going to argue the umpire didn’t screw up. The question is about whether the play is actually dead and I can find no rule or no person stating that the play is actually dead when the ball is ruled foul. I can, however, find in the rule book that the umpires can quickly correct a wrong call, which Scott did.
mb21Quote Reply
@ WaLi:
True, but that their actions don’t match the rules doesn’t mean the rules are void.
mb21Quote Reply
mb21 wrote:
WaLiQuote Reply
@ WaLi:
(dying laughing)
mb21Quote Reply
http://obstructedview.net/news-and-rumors/the-children-are-the-future-cubs-minor-league-update-sponsored-by-redlobster.html
dylanjQuote Reply
But the reason we want calls to be “right” on the field is we want what happens on the field to be equitable. We want fair/foul balls called correctly because the hitter either did or didn’t get a hit, and deserves as much. This was the exact opposite situation, where making the “right” call (after the fact) resulted in a completely inequitable result.
GBTSQuote Reply
@ WaLi:
Do you guys like that show.
Sometimes I am amused, other times I am repulsed.
Suburban kidQuote Reply
@ GBTS:
No, I think you just want the calls to be right. In all honesty, I’m having trouble with an argument that favors getting the call wrong. Not to mention, there’s no rule that play must stop. There’s no rule that the umpire can’t correct his mistake.
One side was going to get fucked on this play. In this instance, the wrong call would have changed the outcome of the game. Isn’t that what we want less of?
Anyway, I’m asking what the correct call is here. I don’t care about my opinion on this if I’m incorrect. I think it was the right call, but if that’s incorrect according to the rules then I have a stupid opinion. Based on everything I’ve read and glancing at the rules, it appears the correct call was made here.
As was pointed out by MGL and Tango, this type of correction happens all the time. Umpires call a runner out and then see the ball was dropped and correct their call. Umpires absolutely should be able to correct a mistake because it will make the game more fair.
mb21Quote Reply
http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/official_info/official_rules/umpire_9.jsp
The umpire initially called it foul. He should have waited. But as this clearly states, getting things right is the most important thing. He called the ball foul. It was fair. So the most important thing on that play was that it be called fair.
mb21Quote Reply